Cowboy Bebop Julia/Vicious..... Love Story?

Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

Yes,he killed Mao under orders,but do you think he wouldn't have done it otherwise?He said himself that he was "A beast who lost his fangs".Meaning that he was obsolete.That's why he eventually killed the Van.Not only because they were running poorly,but because he wanted to run the Red Dragon himself.Vicious is downright evil.Evil people want what other people have.They also want as much power as possible.With control of the Red Dragon,he had both.And Spike was a threat.He was looking to kill Vicious.How is that not a threat?And I agree about your "crossfire" theory.But if you're going to follow it,then you can cross Gren off your list as well.Although he was going to kill him,at the time Gren died he was caught in the crossfire of Spike and Vicious' fight.If you're not going to credit Annie's death to Vicious because his men did it,then why do we credit Adolf Hitler with the deaths of the jews?After all,it was his Nazis that did it.They were under his orders.So whose orders were Annie's killers under?Vicious.I don't get why you're trying to justify Vicious' evil actions.

 

Re: Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

Well for one thing, I never thought Vicious was 'evil'.... or atleast he wasn't any worse then Spike had been when he was in the Red Dragons.

Cowboy Bebop (the main plot of it.. episodes 5,12,13,25,26) wasn't the usual good guy vs. bad guy anime at all... it was about the revenge of one man (Vicious) on another man who he thought had betrayed him (Spike). As it happens, he succeeds in killing him, at the cost of his own life. The concept of good and evil never entered my mind. I don't think we are given enough information about the past of the two men to draw any conclusions as to which of the two men is justified in his actions.

The reason why Spike seems more like a good guy is because the series focuses on him, his friends, and his bounty hunting for 21 episodes. But as far as I'm concerned they are both bad guys.. criminals who did the dirty work of the syndicate. Spike wasn't a threat to Vicious because Spike didn't want to kill him by himself. Vicious was after Spike.. Spike went to kill Vicious only when he heard that Vicious killed Mao Yenrai. What I mean is, if Vicious had forgotten about Spike before episode five...there would've been no confrontation between the two. But Vicious wanted revenge.. so he didn't forget. See for yourself.. During the first four episodes, Spike showed no intention of going after Vicious.

Now as for Mao Yenrai... we both agree that he was killed under orders from the Elders. He signed a peace agreement with an opposing syndicate without permission (hence the opposing syndicate member was killed as well to destroy the signed agreement). I fail to see how you can say 'he did it to gain power'. He was killed because he disobeyed (by becoming a beast without fangs). Basically, if Yenrai hadn't signed that treaty, Vicious would have no reason to kill him. If he wanted to kill him to gain power, then he couldve done it anytime.. not just after he signed the agreement.


As for Gren, you're right he died in the crossfire. So Gren and Julia are off the list.

Now as for Annie. Adolf Hitler specifically ordered the creation of the death camps.. in order to kill Jews. Vicious sent his men to find out from Annie to find out the location of Spike. They only killed her when she refused to answer (unlike the Jews who were killed no matter what they did). The reason I didn't put her on the list is because I dont know exactly what Vicious said to his men. If he said 'kill her if she doesn't tell you', then you're right.. Annie goes on the list. But if he just sent them over without saying that, and the men got frustrated and killed her themselves, then its the men that are responsible (and Annie stays off of Vicious' list). I hope that explains what I was thinking

Now as for the Elders, Vicious said himself that he was trying to kill them because they were running it poorly. If Vicious was doing only it for his own greed.. do you think he would've had supporters in the organization who helped him out? His supporters were people who saw that the Elders were running it poorly and then decided to help him.. or atleast that's the way I understood it.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

Whew! Alot of typing.

Ok,let's see:

1.You're saying that a guy named "Vicious" wasn't meant to be the bad guy in the show?His name isn't "Tigerlilly",you know.

2.You're saying Vicious siezed control of the Red Dragon because he wanted to make a more efficient syndicate?Who the hell would call killing people an equal trade for a slightly more efficient syndicate?I'll tell you who:an EVIL person.

3.You're saying that Spike would have lived in misery and feel like he's dead every day of his life if Vicious had not killed Mao?I think not.He would have hunted him down sooner or later.For the sake of a bounty on his head,or just to exact revenge.

4.Killing Mao was just another step in Vicious' domination of the Red Dragon.So ask yourself why Vicious wanted the Red Dragon again.Both Spike and Vicious knew that their lives would end at each others hands.You think Vicious had plans to run a syndicate for years?No.They both planned to die.And what would help Vicious win against Spike?A giant syndicate to watch his back.

5.So a guy named Vicious would tell his men "If she doesn't tell you,tickle her until she does."?No.Vicious has no respect for human life.Everything is meaningless to him.All except for killing Spike.That's why he acquired the Red Dragon.To kill Spike.If he has no faith in anything,why would he care wether a syndicate was being run poorly or not?

Wow.This is getting intense.A confliction of views!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

Hehe.. dunno about you.. but i like debating Fun to have an intelligent conversation..

1.) I'm saying Cowboy Bebop was a realistic and original enough series to not have a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy'. Vicious didn't go about killing innocent people saying "mwhahaha I will take over the entire world". He killed people under orders, for the good of the syndicate (more on that later), and for personal revenge. Nothing Spike hasn't done.

2.) Um.. who says slightly? In Vicious and his followers eyes, getting rid of the elders was a priority. Obviously they thought a little bloodshed was worth the price of having a better leader.

3.) I'm saying during the first four episodes, Spike showed no intention of hunting down Vicious. The events in CB are the revenge of Vicious for what Spike did to him... he is the agressor. Spike would've been just happy if he had found Julia and never saw Vicious again. The reason he got away from the Syndicate was to live with Julia. Why would he come back if Vicious didn't do anything and let those two alone?

4.) I've already explained that if Yenrai hadn't disobeyed orders, Vicious wouldn't have killed him. As for Vicious' plans... of course he meant to run the syndicate.. I dont understand what you mean by "they both planned to die at each other's hands". Believe me... if Spike couldve killed Vicious and stayed alive.. nothing would've made him happier. If Vicious couldve killed Spike, and survived himself.. he would've been overjoyed. But neither could kill the other without dying himself. Neither of the two was suicidal.
For example... when Spike got to Vicious' room in the final episode... he tried to kill him from a distance. First he blew up the entire room that Vicious was in. He was hoping to God that Vicious get blown to bits without any harm to himself. Then when he got inside the room, he shot at Vicious from the bottom of the stairs (out of range of the sword). Vicious ducked however, and made him come up the stairs to get a shot at him.
Vicious also was hoping that he wouldnt have to face Spike and that his men would take care of him... So he waited for Spike in the topmost room. Again, he wouldve been delighted to see Spike die and live himself.


5.) As I said, if Vicious did say "kill her if she doesn't tell ya" then he is responsible. If the men did it of their own accord, then he isn't. CB doesn't show us him giving them orders.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

I guess we're just not gonna see eye to eye.Niether of us has substantial evidence to prove our theories.Just a few hints.And about Spike being happy without dying after fighting Vicious:that wouldn't happen.If Julia was dead after he killed Vicious,he wouldn't have a reason to live.He would have went back to suffering.Without her.And I'm pretty sure he knew he would die.He and Vicious are polar opposites.Like 2 conflicting stars.Destined to extinguish each other.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ***Spoilers***

Ya.. neither of us has anything approaching a "proof". But oh well.. its still fun discussing stuff

As for Spike, you seem to think Julia is the only reason for Spike to live. If so, then why did Spike blow up Vicious' room from outside to try and kill him? Or why did he try and kill him from the bottom of the stairs? Was he planning to kill him, and then commit suicide? I don't think so. I said earlier that CB is realistic... Spike wouldn't kill himself after his loved one dies.. people greive and then move on.. so would Spike. Outside of romance novels, 'love' isn't the only reason why people live.

Either way.. its been fun chattin.. cya around.

avmoghe

 

this has been quite a lovely little discussion but just for further reference of everyone reading this--you dont have to quote all that stuff, especially when the posts are so long to begin with and the quoted post is right behind yours. i think we're all clever enough to get the point. thats a reason we have threads for specific topics. if you really feel the need to clarify just put the subject as in response to so n so... itll just help keep the forums clean. thanks and heres to more happy discussions!

 

yah vicious and julia had a child. his name is sepiroth. LOL.

 

heh yes. there had to be.. how could anyone say no to vicious.. *sigh*
julia is a little slut
but for some resson she is my favorite char in bebop.. *ponders*