Kenshin a samurai?

OK THEN

so ive got a little time on my hands and i feel like ressurecting this post from the ashes.

it is impossible to place a title without background first

(sit down this is a long one)

first of all, the "samurai" were not an official "class" until the time of Hideyoshi during the late part of the Sengoku Jidai.

Hideyoshi and his predecessor Nobunaga had both been born from impoverished families but had risen through the ranks to become the leaders of Japan.

Hideyoshi saw this in himself and decided that he was not going to let someone like himself rise to power. thus he laid down the caste system and started what is known as Hideyoshi's sword hunt. Until this time, anyone was allowed to wear armor and wield swords, thus being the famous "Warring States" period of Japan. However with the sword hunt underway, peasents were stripped of their weaponry and armor and became the lower classes of the caste system. Thus the Samurai became the "golden rulers" of Japans Caste System.

In the years to come, the samurai became heraditary, passing down the family name and samurai were only samurai if they were born that way or if they were adopted into a samurai family. Even into the times of the Bakumatsu, the samurai still lived this way, however, the caste system had started to slip during the 1700's. Merchants were the shrewed businessmen of Japan's Edo Period. They made nothing and served no one and thus they quickly were able to make vast amounts of money, often times eclipsing the pay of a Samurai. it wasnt uncommon to find merchants who bore two names and carried swords as they once had been Samurai.

The Samurai in this period faced a serious challenge. After the Battle for Sekigahara, a long reign of peace came, and the Samurai, warriors of the battlefield, lost a place in this new world. Hundreds of Thousands of Samurai were left without a place to serve. only so many could be given jobs in the new Tokugawa World and the rest were divided into two groups. the Yoriai and the Kobushingumi. both groups were paid a small stipend every year from the Tokugawa Government but held no post within it. The Yoriai made between 3000 and 10,000 koku a year, while the Kobushingumi made less then 3000, this was the bitter world of the samurai. without substantial pay or a place to work, many took to the roads wandering as Ronin. Still others found work as Watari Kachi. a breed of Samurai all unto themselves.

These "straw men" were the "window dressing" of the Sankin Kotai system. The Sankin Kotai system was a obligatory stay for all Daimyo in Edo. This prevented them from gather troops and starting a rebellion. For most Daimyo it came every other year. For the Daimyo in the Kanto region this stay came every 6 months. and the Governer of Tsushima Island between Japan and Korea every 3 years. The Daimyo's family would stay in the han while they travelled to another home in Edo. The Sankin Kotai was a costly movement for any Daimyo and for a Han with a taxbase of less than 100,000 Koku retainers and bodygaurds were a luxury ill afforded. thus they turned to Watari Kachi, straw men, the lowest of the low, of the Buke Society. These men were low ranking bushi on the ouside, but inside they were much different, the mutant offspring of proper buke society. they served no fixed master and changed alliegience by the season, they were law less. since they only needed to slip into the closely gaurded checkpoints of their employeers han, they could get away with just about anything.

and thus we have a good look at several different classes as well as the beginings of the Samurai Culture, now to our subject, is Kenshin a samurai?

simply put, no, he is not.

he was born to farmers in the Kansei area. when he was young his parents died of Cholera and he was sold to slavers. he journeyed with three young girls. however in this chaotic time, the checkpoints that gaurded the byways of Japan had begun to fall apart and everyday more and more bandits and ronin attacked travellers. the group of slavers Shinta was part of was attacked and everyone was killed. Shinta was only saved by the grace of a passing swordsmen known as Hiko Seijuurou. Hiko advised the boy to go the near by town and take refuge there. Returning the next day however, Hiko found the boy standing in a field surrounded by the graves of both the bandits and the slavers. seeing an immense amount of spirit in the young boy he took him in and gave him the name Kenshin, which means Heart of the Sword, telling him he would be the strongest.

though he wields a sword, he is not samurai, simply a boy taken under the wing of another swordsmen and taught the arts of war.

Is Kenshin a Samurai.... no he is not.

however there is a member of the Kenshingumi who IS a samurai. Myojin Yahiko was the son of a Edo Samurai who served in the Shogitai. Though undiciplined Yahiko takes great pride in his samurai heritage and continues to show it through out the course of his walk as a swordsman.

 

I agree with you.There is no way Kenshin is a samurai for he was not born into a Samurai family.Plus he does not carry two swords,but he carrys one.So all he is is a swordsman,a very good one at that.

 

actually, he did carry two swords during the Bakumatsu when he worked as a Kage no Hitokiri, and during this particular period, anyone was allowed to wear the daisho (lit. big small, the matched pair of a daito or long sword with a shoto or short sword, sometimes the short sword was replaced by a tanto) and wear their hair in chonmage (samurai topknot).

as for his wearing only the daito later in life, this is strictly because of his principles, wielding the Sakabatou, unwilling to take life, to carry a regular wakizashi was unthinkable.

 

Here's the question, Samurai or Not Samurai?

Do you guys even know what a Samurai is!?:anger2:

I don't know about you, but what I have learned about Samurais is that
1. They are of high stature
2. They are direct warriors of the Shogun (Do you know what a Shogun is?)
3. They are privilaged to own lands and have slaves
4. they are allowed to carry deadly weapons such as Samurais, Kodachi, Nanigata and other sorts in public.
5. Samurais are considered as officials or noble men in their respective areas.

Yes, the Samurais live a good life, and where does Kenshin fit in the picture?

1. He is a wonderer
2. Doesn't own anything valueable except his Samurai
3. Doesn't own any land (he doesn't even have a home for crying out loud!)
4. Lives through the Kindness of his friends (especially Kouru)
5. He does not obey any Shogun (he has no master, even his sword master disowns him!)

For all I know Kenshin is a Ronin, he wields a samurai, but he does not obey any master, as I understand it, Ronins are warriors that holds a samurai and they don't obey any master (not the kind that flunked their college entrance exams, that's a different kind of Ronin). He does his actions according to what he perceives is correct and the right thing to do. You can say he's a vigilante, but a warrior none the less...

Well, that is how I see Kenshin...

 

ok im gonna correct you on a few things here

first of all Samurai did not necessarily have a high stature, yes they were the highest on the Caste system of Japan, but that meant nothing if they didnt have an employer.

Not all samurai were employed by the shogun, actually after Sekigahara thousands were left to wander the country.

well so were merchants and other members of society, owning land didnt mean you were a samurai.

well this is true, but the weapons they carred were the Daisho a matched pair of long and sword swords, knives, polearms like Yari and Naginata.

well they were considered to be "nobles" anywhere they went, disrespect of a samurai often times meant death as they were allowed the Kirisute Gomen policy which was the unpunished slaying of any peasent.

first off Kenshin is a wandering kenkaku (sword master) he has no ties to any daimyo because simply put he is not a samurai, and particularly in this time, Emporer Mutsuhito is in the seat of power, the entire fuedal system had already collapsed. Daimyo and Shoguns no longer exist.

hes not a ronin per se because hes not a samurai, and even tho ronin wander without masters they still remain samurai, thus Watsuki created the "rurouni".

 

Do I know what a samurai is!!! I study swordsmanship,plus I have studyed Japanese history.I would correct you on some things,but I think that
Gensai coverd it all.Oh,and Gensai,I have only seen a few Episodes of Ruroni Kenshin,but thank you for correcting me,thanks to you,(And your history lesson,if thats what you want to call it)I know more know than I did before!

 

and everybodies happy

 

erm, samurai me, id like to challenge your knowledge, mostly because after looking through your previous post there are some missing pieces of information.

firstly, the samurai were privilaged to wear two swords for several hundreds of years, however in 1860's the ban on swords was lifted allowing anyone to carry a sword of any length including the daisho and wearing their hair chonmage, so during the Bakumatsu anyone was allowed to wear the daisho, which meant that the daisho no longer served as a definitive proof of ones Samurai heritage.


im also curious to what style of swordsmenship you study, i myself have studied Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryuu along with some principle of Mugai Ryuu.

 

Samurais and their Swords

Well, one of the things I heard about the Samurais is that they strictly follow a code of conduct when they do battle. It was said that each warrior who would slay each other would introduce themselves, maybe that explains why most enemies Kenshin face tell their life story and everything before they kill each other.

I have also seen a documentary about the Mongols slaying a lot of Samurais when they tried to invade Japan. Most Samurais use hand held weapons, they didn't expected the Mongols to be using cross bows and arrows

One interesting Rurouni Kenshin episode is when he faught a German knight (I forgot what's his name) He was using the Jousting technique with Kenshin. As you can see the odds were all in the advantage of the Knight, he had a horse, a long lance and an armor. I wonder how the fight would have eneded like if they used the conventional Samurai Techniques?

 

in the years immediatly following the setting of the Caste System, such strict rules were followed however, they slowly became less used and eventually forgotten through out the age to come. Especially in the Bakumatsu, this tradition was not followed.

ACTUALLY, when the mongols invaded Japan, they came in a huge fleet of ships 4400 ships a armada that would not be matched until the D-Day invasion of World War II. they used bows and catapults from their ships as well as primitave missile, however once they landed on shore they were utterly defeated. The Chinese style swords and polearms were in no way a match for the Nihontou and even the chainmail they used was useless against them.
(at this particular time, a popular style of sword was used called the Shobu Zukuri blade, the time was very long and sloped and it was easily able to piece armor) (http://bugei.com/product_600_detailed.htm , a close up of the Shobu Zukuri style)
The samurai were masters of close range combat and even the mighty Mongols fell before them. However, the Mongols came in sheer numbers, and defeat seemed eminent for the Samurai and the Japanese people. however in the night a huge typhoon swept up the coast and in one night, the entire Mongol Armada disappeared thus bringing the legend of the Kamikaze, the Wind of God that had spared the Japanese.

as a small side note, many of the Mongol ships were river boats that had a shallow draft to allow for shallow harbors and thus were not out fitted for the ocean. The rest of the boats that were made by Chinese slaves were poorly made and more or less flimsy in design, simply because the Mongols didnt know about boats or ships and thus the Chinese slaves built inferior boats knowing the Mongols wouldnt recognize the poor workmenship.

 

Kenkaku...

You're know your Samurai History very well, I'm impressed
Ultimately, I would agree with the Sword Master title for Himura, I have read a lot of articles related to the Rurouni Kenshin anime and many believes he is a Samurai or a Ronin, it was speculated that the title was derived from the word "Ronin" itself for the "Rurouni" (I really can't put my finger on how they come up with it )

As for the Japanese title that mentioned Kenshin's name, the English equivalent "Samurai X" sounds too far off from the original. I believe this is where most of the confusion came from, since Kenshin is the main character, he wields a sword called a samurai, he fights bad guys who are also using samurais, his environment is the typical Dojos, shrines and old Japanese houses and you mix in the common belief that any person who holds a Samurai sword is a samurai equals many confused people... :sweat:

Not many people fully understand what trully makes a Samurai a "Samurai" except that they hold a Japanese sword called a Samurai . As far as I know the summary of a Samurai is an elite warrior who serves only the Shogun. The media and other influences hid and most times mislead a lot of details concernig these misunderstood warriors. I believe the Ninja is also a victim of this, they were believed to posses supernatural powers (as to what most movies and tv shows suggest today), but actually they were just clever warriors who uses specialized and cleverly designed tools for combat. not only that, there is also the Sholin Kung Fu and stuff.

What do you guys think?

(Hey, I can make a new thread about these misunderstood warriors
)

 

Ok,I do not no a whole lot of japanese history.And I know very little,but I have studied enough to know what a samurai is,and when they were beat and basically reduced to nothing.I have also studied the history of three great swordsman of Japan.They were,Kamiizumi Hidetsuna,Yagyu Muneyoshi,And Yagyu Munenori(Muneyoshi's son)I am sorry if I came across like I was some kind of genious or somthing,but I have studied it.

And the style I do is from the Shinkage school of swordsmanship.I learned every thing I know from a book that is very detailed,it is called the Heiho Kaden Sho,which has been translated into The sword and the mind.I am not quite sure what style this is though,but some of the techniques are
the Chotan Ichimi,Kyu(Also known as Futarikake and Konpirabo)Tensetsu Rensetsu,Muniken,and Katsuniken.

The reason I read a book and not actually go to a school is because there are no schools were I live,so I chose this book to teach me,I have studied it for quite awhile,and before this I knew only plain old practice with a sword every day.I am 15 just to let you know incase you thought I was an adult or somthing.:sweat2:

 

actually Watsuki made up the word Rurouni and it means something close to Vagabond. and Ronin, though masterless were actually still samurai so he would not fit in this category.

erm.... "samurai" is not a type of sword..... its a word that means "to serve". the Japanese sword is often refered to as a katana, this again is a word not a style of sword although it has come to mean it. katana simply means sword in the Japanese language. Most serious collecters refer to the japanese sword ultamitly as the Nihontou, which means Japanese Sword. However if you want to break it down into different types of swords there are many many names.


and a samurai didnt necessarily serve only the shogun. actually most samurai were employed by Daimyo and other provincial leaders. but again a Daimyo could only employ so many warriors and the same went for the Shogunate. Thus you have ronin.

as for Ninja, or Shinobi, they were trained in many of the same arts as the Samurai, and for the most part carried the same weaponry as the Samurai. as a note there IS NOT a special straight sword called the "ninjato". there is nothing in history to records this, however it IS true that the shinobi used different weapons to suit there task, one such weapon was a long pole army with a long pike on the end that also had cross bars coming out of it all along the pole, and was used as a ladder for scaling fences and other things.

as a note, Shoalin and Kung Fu are both purely Chinese, and the Shinobi were NOT trained in either art.

 

hrm it sounds like Yagyu Shinkage Ryuu, or Yagyu Shin'in Ryuu. both schools were founded in the early part of the 1600's when the Yagyu became Metsuke for the Tokugawa Shogunate as well as the Kenjutsu teachers. actually ive studied some of the iai aspects of Shinkage Ryuu myself and its quite and interesting school, the techniques varying a good deal from those of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryuu and Mugai Ryuu alike.

have you practiced O-tameshigiri? its a practice that is necessary for training but something i would NOT suggest to someone whose studied like you have.

 

So it's Kenjutsu.....COOL! You are correct,I beileve it was Munenori,who became a daimyo with a pay of 10,000 koku,that served Iemitsu,the Tokugawa Shogunate from uhhhh,well,I don't know,but I do know that Munenori taught Iemitsu swordsmanship.

And I think my book talks about that kind of training.

My training usually consists of practicing moves and poses over and over,and reading the book over and over. I also meditate to help me concentrate and clear my mind of distractions(Such as thinking about girls)I also spar with my brother who is coming along nicely I think.He has already perfected three moves,I am very proud of him.But I wish to enhance my training to push my abilitys to the limit!!!Right know im trying to master Muto,or No sword.

 

Samurai Me, I can actually relate to you on many levels. For one, I myself am learning Mu Gai Ryu from a book and what it doesn't help me with I go to Gensai. Secondly, I can't afford to go to a school either, as of now and am also saving up for a new sword as well. I spar with my brother as well, though his skills are, to say the least, rough.

 

Wow,that's cool.We have quite a bit in common.My brother isn't rough though,he's more of a softy,somtimes,just for fun,I pull of the best technique I know just to see what he does.Lol,he still has a long ways to go!

 

When I said rough, i meant more along the lines of undisciplined, untrained, etc, etc. If your bro is good, you're lucky. I have to practice against someone who mixes Star Wars and Samurai Champloo techniques together and someone who uses the gatotsu, ugh. Anyways, back to the toic, hehe.

 

LOL.Well anyways,one thing I do know is that Muto is so hard.In muto,you have no sword,and your suppose to take your opponents sword.I keep trying,but I usually get hit,and hard too!(OUCH)It's been a while since I practiced it though,my brother has been doing other stuff.