Missing or quiet sounds in surround Tomita surround CDs

Hi!

I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
(probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
not my memory!).

I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).

I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?

Thanks! Joe

 

In a message dated 4/16/04 1:57:08 PM Central Daylight Time, joe at skyrush.com
writes:

> I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
> memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
> Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
> (probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
> of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
> loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
> prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
> not my memory!).
>
> I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
> result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).
>
> I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
> successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
> a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
> any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?


Hi,
I've also noticed the missing parts on the RCA Dolby Surround CDs. I think
it's like Nick mentioned - the mixing engineers altered the mix to make the
surround tracks more prominent, and the overall mix sufferred. :-(

I think the Pictures at an Exhibition CD took the biggest hit of the RCA
surround discs that I've heard. I also noticed the missing parts in
"Ballet/Chicks", as well as other songs (Bydlo and Tuileries?). I'd love to be able to
listen to the original RCA LP for comparison's sake. Too bad my turntable is shot.


Andrew Sanchez

PS From my understanding, Dolby Surround is derived entirely from the audio
info in the main stereo channels. If you turn off the surround channels, the
two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix. With the Pictures disc, I
think the main stereo mix is just plain bad from the get-go. Here's hoping for
a DVD-Audio release...

 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:55:11 -0600, you wrote:

>Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
>a normal stereo?

No, it puts the rear sound in the two stereo channels but out of phase between
the two channels. This creates a "spacey" or impossible-to-localize effect for
the rear sound when played over two speakers, but it should be very audible.
It will only be hard to hear if the two channels are mixed to mono. See
http://www.dolby.com/tech/whtppr.html , section 1.1.

The real problem is that the Dolby Surround mix of Pictures is messed up.
Completely unacceptable, if you ask me. It's the worst of the Dolby mixes RCA
made, and Ballet of the Chicks in their Shells is the worst track.

I can't go into more details because Kosmos and Firebird were the only two of
that series I considered worth keeping... I remember thinking that Snowflakes
sounded hard, like there was too much upper midrange. It's definitely worth
getting the Japanese CDs or even the original western CD releases. (Does
anyone know if there is any difference between the European and American CD
releases?)

 

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:55:11 -0600, you wrote:

>Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
>a normal stereo?

No, it puts the rear sound in the two stereo channels but out of phase between
the two channels. This creates a "spacey" or impossible-to-localize effect for
the rear sound when played over two speakers, but it should be very audible.
It will only be hard to hear if the two channels are mixed to mono. See
http://www.dolby.com/tech/whtppr.html , section 1.1.

The real problem is that the Dolby Surround mix of Pictures is messed up.
Completely unacceptable, if you ask me. It's the worst of the Dolby mixes RCA
made, and Ballet of the Chicks in their Shells is the worst track.

I can't go into more details because Kosmos and Firebird were the only two of
that series I considered worth keeping... I remember thinking that Snowflakes
sounded hard, like there was too much upper midrange. It's definitely worth
getting the Japanese CDs or even the original western CD releases. (Does
anyone know if there is any difference between the European and American CD
releases?)

 

I wrote:
> > If you turn off the surround channels, the
> > two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.

ndkent at optonline.net writes:
> no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro
logic
> decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
> still probably powered nothing will come out


Ah, yes..thanks. Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm not running a center or sub
channel in my system, and by "turning off the surrounds", I actually did mean
turning off the Dolby Pro Logic decoder.

As an aside, I just bought a Silverline Records Rick Wakeman DVD-audio disc
with a 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 high resolution audio tracks, and it sounds
plain horrid. I really don't know how any kind of "new and improved" media
format can survive with these terrible sounding releases.

...and the RIAA wonders why they aren't selling CDs? (ducking ;-)

Andrew Sanchez

 

I wrote:
> > If you turn off the surround channels, the
> > two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.

ndkent at optonline.net writes:
> no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro
logic
> decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
> still probably powered nothing will come out


Ah, yes..thanks. Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm not running a center or sub
channel in my system, and by "turning off the surrounds", I actually did mean
turning off the Dolby Pro Logic decoder.

As an aside, I just bought a Silverline Records Rick Wakeman DVD-audio disc
with a 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 high resolution audio tracks, and it sounds
plain horrid. I really don't know how any kind of "new and improved" media
format can survive with these terrible sounding releases.

...and the RIAA wonders why they aren't selling CDs? (ducking ;-)

Andrew Sanchez

 

Joe Peterson <joe at skyrush.com> wrote:Hi!

I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
(probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
not my memory!).

I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).

I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?

Thanks! Joe


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It happens to me when a first bought the whole Cd's (sourround from RCA),for the replaced of my old Lp's And Tapes and ,beleive me there is nothing you can do about it,

still, I bought recently a 24 Bit gold finish RCA Snowflakes (no sourround) and it sound pretty decent,I asked to the clerk and he think It would be also like the same for the rest of the collection,by the way : does any body knows if this its true or it's just a comment from the clerk that does not know a thing?



Thanks


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Joe Peterson <joe at skyrush.com> wrote:Hi!

I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
(probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
not my memory!).

I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).

I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?

Thanks! Joe


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It happens to me when a first bought the whole Cd's (sourround from RCA),for the replaced of my old Lp's And Tapes and ,beleive me there is nothing you can do about it,

still, I bought recently a 24 Bit gold finish RCA Snowflakes (no sourround) and it sound pretty decent,I asked to the clerk and he think It would be also like the same for the rest of the collection,by the way : does any body knows if this its true or it's just a comment from the clerk that does not know a thing?



Thanks


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Hello,
In case anyone wanted to hear clips of what this "missing sounds" thread was
about..

Try this link for an Amazon.com Windows Media sound clip of "Gnome", from
the Tomita Pictures at an Exhibition RCA Dolby surround CD:

http://tinyurl.com/2xk8r

Check out the chords starting at 44 seconds into the Gnome music clip. I'm
pretty sure there are missing parts in that section.

The the above link doesn't work, here's the main page for the CD:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003F2D

Andrew Sanchez

PS Thanks to Nick for the Amazon.com sound clip idea

 

Hello,
In case anyone wanted to hear clips of what this "missing sounds" thread was
about..

Try this link for an Amazon.com Windows Media sound clip of "Gnome", from
the Tomita Pictures at an Exhibition RCA Dolby surround CD:

http://tinyurl.com/2xk8r

Check out the chords starting at 44 seconds into the Gnome music clip. I'm
pretty sure there are missing parts in that section.

The the above link doesn't work, here's the main page for the CD:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003F2D

Andrew Sanchez

PS Thanks to Nick for the Amazon.com sound clip idea