Missing or quiet sounds in surround Tomita surround CDs

on 4/16/04 2:55 PM, Joe Peterson at joe at skyrush.com wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
> memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
> Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
> (probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
> of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
> loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
> prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
> not my memory!).
>
> I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
> result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).
>
> I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
> successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
> a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
> any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?
>
> Thanks! Joe
>

Well yes maybe compatible but not unaltered might be better put, it is
compatible because you can hear something not entirely messed up (compare it
for instance to a dbx analog noise reduced encoding if you ever come across
one). I'm sure it is a case that the twiddling done to what I presume was a
stereo master to make the surround effect happen is going to leave some
alteration in the sound. In general any scheme to get greater number of
channels out of a discrete source has some kind of side effect although each
encoding scheme has different plusses and minuses compared to straight
forward discrete channels. There would likely be some phase changing and
adjustments made to make the surround more dramatic that does have an audio
impact on an undecoded stereo playback. Good point if you can un-encode it
completely. I'd say definitely no if anything was actively adjusted in doing
the encoding. You might be better off with a Japanese CD or that noiser
1980s CD mastering of it.

 

>
> Andrew Sanchez
>
> PS From my understanding, Dolby Surround is derived entirely from the audio
> info in the main stereo channels.

Dolby Pro-Logic Surround is what those early 90s BMG CDs are. Dolby has many
surround formats but on the other hand it is implied that if you have a
regular audio CD and it's Surround then it's almost definitely using their
Pro-Logic system. (Conversely when people talk 'surround' right now it is
probably their AC3 encoding system that is a multiplexed stream of lossy
compressed but discrete audio data)

Anyway. Yes. Pro-Logic is merely stereo audio when undencoded. A pro logic
decoder turns it into a left, a right, a center and a somewhat limited
frequency rear channel mostly for sound effects. I'm sure numerous websites
give far more techy explanations that either make it easier or harder to
understand. But yes, some clever circuitry pulls the center and rear
channels out and modifies the remaining left and right channels to contain
less center to emphasize the effect. It's all done by the decoder canceling
and redirecting parts of the original stereo content and the rear contains a
slight added delay to make any movement more intense. If you have a
consumer decoder you may already know by now that it makes most plain old
stereo recordings sound not too far from proper surround encoded ones. The
only big difference is they will definitely correct bad side effects. If you
go through all your non-Pro Logic CDs with the decoder on you will notice
the mono ones will sound center only but some natural and artificial phase
changes naturally in stereo recordings sometimes create side effects like
stuff dropping out or not sounding right.

I bought a Felini/Rota movie the CAM label decided to make into pro-logic.
Complete crap sounding since they worked with a mono original and decided to
add echo and comb filtering. Completely crap sounding in both pro logic and
regular stereo.

> If you turn off the surround channels, the
> two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.

no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro logic
decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
still probably powered nothing will come out

With the circuit on the left and right front speakers have much of the
center channel lowered in volume. So disconecting those other speakers won't
sound the same as turning off the decoder

I believe out of phase material gets steered to the rear with the high
frequencies rolled off so to get the rear to be dramatic I think out of
phase material is introduced if you are intentionally trying to make Pro
Logic encoding seem more dramatic.

So while the audio plays as a regular CD without anything incredibly messed
up sounding, the stereo recording was doctored by the process to give
desired results


With the Pictures disc, I
> think the main stereo mix is just plain bad from the get-go. Here's hoping for
> a DVD-Audio release...

Yeah, though if you thought the LP was right then at one point in time one
of the stereo mixes clearly wasn't completely bad.

I would guess we will see a lot more if new hi-fidelity formats become
profitable. But we can hope and push for Tomita to make sure they sound good
rather than the labels be indifferent and wonder why people aren't sure.

 

>
> Andrew Sanchez
>
> PS From my understanding, Dolby Surround is derived entirely from the audio
> info in the main stereo channels.

Dolby Pro-Logic Surround is what those early 90s BMG CDs are. Dolby has many
surround formats but on the other hand it is implied that if you have a
regular audio CD and it's Surround then it's almost definitely using their
Pro-Logic system. (Conversely when people talk 'surround' right now it is
probably their AC3 encoding system that is a multiplexed stream of lossy
compressed but discrete audio data)

Anyway. Yes. Pro-Logic is merely stereo audio when undencoded. A pro logic
decoder turns it into a left, a right, a center and a somewhat limited
frequency rear channel mostly for sound effects. I'm sure numerous websites
give far more techy explanations that either make it easier or harder to
understand. But yes, some clever circuitry pulls the center and rear
channels out and modifies the remaining left and right channels to contain
less center to emphasize the effect. It's all done by the decoder canceling
and redirecting parts of the original stereo content and the rear contains a
slight added delay to make any movement more intense. If you have a
consumer decoder you may already know by now that it makes most plain old
stereo recordings sound not too far from proper surround encoded ones. The
only big difference is they will definitely correct bad side effects. If you
go through all your non-Pro Logic CDs with the decoder on you will notice
the mono ones will sound center only but some natural and artificial phase
changes naturally in stereo recordings sometimes create side effects like
stuff dropping out or not sounding right.

I bought a Felini/Rota movie the CAM label decided to make into pro-logic.
Complete crap sounding since they worked with a mono original and decided to
add echo and comb filtering. Completely crap sounding in both pro logic and
regular stereo.

> If you turn off the surround channels, the
> two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.

no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro logic
decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
still probably powered nothing will come out

With the circuit on the left and right front speakers have much of the
center channel lowered in volume. So disconecting those other speakers won't
sound the same as turning off the decoder

I believe out of phase material gets steered to the rear with the high
frequencies rolled off so to get the rear to be dramatic I think out of
phase material is introduced if you are intentionally trying to make Pro
Logic encoding seem more dramatic.

So while the audio plays as a regular CD without anything incredibly messed
up sounding, the stereo recording was doctored by the process to give
desired results


With the Pictures disc, I
> think the main stereo mix is just plain bad from the get-go. Here's hoping for
> a DVD-Audio release...

Yeah, though if you thought the LP was right then at one point in time one
of the stereo mixes clearly wasn't completely bad.

I would guess we will see a lot more if new hi-fidelity formats become
profitable. But we can hope and push for Tomita to make sure they sound good
rather than the labels be indifferent and wonder why people aren't sure.

 

on 4/17/04 10:42 PM, ixqy at aol.com at ixqy at aol.com wrote:

>
> I wrote:
>>> If you turn off the surround channels, the
>>> two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.
>
> ndkent at optonline.net writes:
>> no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro
> logic
>> decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
>> still probably powered nothing will come out
>
>
> Ah, yes..thanks. Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm not running a center or sub
> channel in my system, and by "turning off the surrounds", I actually did mean
> turning off the Dolby Pro Logic decoder.

Okay,

but you still have a recording with some phase and balance info tampered in
there with so that the the decoder can do stuff with it


> As an aside, I just bought a Silverline Records Rick Wakeman DVD-audio disc
> with a 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 high resolution audio tracks, and it sounds
> plain horrid. I really don't know how any kind of "new and improved" media
> format can survive with these terrible sounding releases.

I have no problem at all with the sound on "The Tomita Planets 2003" - now
the format and why I had to rip it to get it to play it is an other matter,
but it's quite a good listen and if there were little bugs and discrepancies
in what I have I never noticed them. I'm happy I got it.



side topic -
I was just watching the anime "Tokyo Godfathers" which was U.S. DVD
released this week. Composer Keichi Suzuki (also behind the recent Zatoichi)
for the end theme does a rock cover of Carlos' "Clockwork Orange" take on
Beethoven's 9th. It looks like he was sort of balancing out the cliche the
original version has become in after being overused for decades (the CD's 74
minutes was chosen because the famous Herbert von Karajan recording was that
long)

 

on 4/17/04 10:42 PM, ixqy at aol.com at ixqy at aol.com wrote:

>
> I wrote:
>>> If you turn off the surround channels, the
>>> two front speakers (should!) contain the entire mix.
>
> ndkent at optonline.net writes:
>> no actually you'll get exactly that only if you turn off the dolby pro
> logic
>> decoder. When you turn it off, though your center and surround speakers are
>> still probably powered nothing will come out
>
>
> Ah, yes..thanks. Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm not running a center or sub
> channel in my system, and by "turning off the surrounds", I actually did mean
> turning off the Dolby Pro Logic decoder.

Okay,

but you still have a recording with some phase and balance info tampered in
there with so that the the decoder can do stuff with it


> As an aside, I just bought a Silverline Records Rick Wakeman DVD-audio disc
> with a 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 high resolution audio tracks, and it sounds
> plain horrid. I really don't know how any kind of "new and improved" media
> format can survive with these terrible sounding releases.

I have no problem at all with the sound on "The Tomita Planets 2003" - now
the format and why I had to rip it to get it to play it is an other matter,
but it's quite a good listen and if there were little bugs and discrepancies
in what I have I never noticed them. I'm happy I got it.



side topic -
I was just watching the anime "Tokyo Godfathers" which was U.S. DVD
released this week. Composer Keichi Suzuki (also behind the recent Zatoichi)
for the end theme does a rock cover of Carlos' "Clockwork Orange" take on
Beethoven's 9th. It looks like he was sort of balancing out the cliche the
original version has become in after being overused for decades (the CD's 74
minutes was chosen because the famous Herbert von Karajan recording was that
long)

 

> on 4/20/04 10:07 PM, carlos roman at carlos_roman2 at yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Peterson <joe at skyrush.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
> memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
> Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
> (probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
> of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
> loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
> prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
> not my memory!).
>
> I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
> result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).
>
> I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
> successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
> a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
> any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?
>
> Thanks! Joe
>
>
>
> It happens to me when a first bought the whole Cd's (sourround from RCA),for
> the replaced of my old Lp's And Tapes and ,beleive me there is nothing you can
> do about it,
>
> still, I bought recently a 24 Bit gold finish RCA Snowflakes (no sourround)
> and it sound pretty decent,I asked to the clerk and he think It would be also
> like the same for the rest of the collection,by the way : does any body knows
> if this its true or it's just a comment from the clerk that does not know a
> thing?



Thanks

So is the one you have different from from BMG Classics cat# 09026-63588-2 ?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00003OP6X

I'd be very curious to know if it's something else.

That is the "24 bit" remastered "High Performance" version issued in the US
in 2000. It's not gold finish and it is surround but it's printed very
small. Actually it's just remastered using 24 bit technology, it's not
actually a DVD-A or something that actually contains 24 bit audio now.


If it is that version. The upside is you get "Prelude to an Afternoon of a
Faun" as a bonus track. The sound is a real mixed bag. Older U.S. versions
seem in general to be noisy and distorted in a few spots. This new version
isn't noisy but has some of that swallowed and skimmed off side effect you
get when the noise is removed too aggressively. Instead of distortion in
general it's a little harsh sounding with the dynamic range extended a lot.
This sounds like something you'd want but some passages are way too soft to
listen to without turning up the volume and then the louder passages blow
your ears out if you use headphones. This isn't music meant to startle and
scare like some huge symphony or horror film (which surround sound might
just work well with)

nick
http://www.artskool.biz/jem/it.html

 

> on 4/20/04 10:07 PM, carlos roman at carlos_roman2 at yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Peterson <joe at skyrush.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I recently got a few of the Tomita surround albums - brings back
> memories. Anyway, I tried to encode these into my MP3 jukebox using
> Linux's LAME MP3 encoder, but the result is that it seems some sounds
> (probably rear speakers) is missing. It is evident, e.g., on Ballet
> of the Chicks in their Shells (Pictures at an Exhibition). Some of the
> loud and long clucks at the end of the verses I recall being much more
> prominent. I should dig out my LP and see what I hear (make sure it's
> not my memory!).
>
> I also played the CD on my regular CD player, and I heard the same
> result (so it's not he MP3 encoding that's doing it).
>
> I have been trying to find out how to remedy this, but I have not been
> successful. Does Dolby surround make it hard to hear "rear" channels on
> a normal stereo? It says it should be backwards compatible. Have you
> any idea how to reclaim the sound into normal stereo?
>
> Thanks! Joe
>
>
>
> It happens to me when a first bought the whole Cd's (sourround from RCA),for
> the replaced of my old Lp's And Tapes and ,beleive me there is nothing you can
> do about it,
>
> still, I bought recently a 24 Bit gold finish RCA Snowflakes (no sourround)
> and it sound pretty decent,I asked to the clerk and he think It would be also
> like the same for the rest of the collection,by the way : does any body knows
> if this its true or it's just a comment from the clerk that does not know a
> thing?



Thanks

So is the one you have different from from BMG Classics cat# 09026-63588-2 ?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00003OP6X

I'd be very curious to know if it's something else.

That is the "24 bit" remastered "High Performance" version issued in the US
in 2000. It's not gold finish and it is surround but it's printed very
small. Actually it's just remastered using 24 bit technology, it's not
actually a DVD-A or something that actually contains 24 bit audio now.


If it is that version. The upside is you get "Prelude to an Afternoon of a
Faun" as a bonus track. The sound is a real mixed bag. Older U.S. versions
seem in general to be noisy and distorted in a few spots. This new version
isn't noisy but has some of that swallowed and skimmed off side effect you
get when the noise is removed too aggressively. Instead of distortion in
general it's a little harsh sounding with the dynamic range extended a lot.
This sounds like something you'd want but some passages are way too soft to
listen to without turning up the volume and then the louder passages blow
your ears out if you use headphones. This isn't music meant to startle and
scare like some huge symphony or horror film (which surround sound might
just work well with)

nick
http://www.artskool.biz/jem/it.html