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Discussion in 'Rurouni Kenshin' started by That guy!, Aug 11, 2003.
the name of the song is Kotowari
(Post to Mister Kawakami)
I've looked, and cannot find any Kodachis beign sold. Are they still being made? To the best of your knowledge Gensai, if you were to buy, a sword made from a very good sword-smith, and it was sharp, and durable, and all of that, how much would it cost? I know its very expensive, and was wondering if you would know how much, for an authentic, real Japanese sword.
(i know i kind of changed the subject, i apologize, but i am very eager to know.)
I was looking on the internet just a few moments ago, and found, on ebay, this man selling swords(the man is in Japan.) He was charging, about $550 for a sword he said was a replica of "Kotetsu", the first thing that came to mind was Nagosone Kotetsu. But he said it wasn't sharp, and i thought that the Nagosone Kotetsu's were a very sharp type of sword. I'm confused.
What would be a good price, for a good sword.(just my curiasity again). Well, i should stop typing now, i think i've asked enough questions for one post.
aright, there are two that i know of, one is a very expensive prop sword, and the other is a cutting sword made by Cold Steel which is an american company that produces what i find to be somewhat decent swords.
The Cold steel sword is labelled as a Chisa-gatana which is similar to a Kodachi. Kodachi simply means "short tachi". The Chisa-gatana is the predecessor to the Wakizashi. For a period, the merchant class was not allowed to wear swords over a certain length thus they would wear shorter swords. The name Chisa-gatana means "small katana" thus it differs from the katana only in size. However, because many of the affulent merchant had lots of money, many of them would carry lavishly decorated swords. The Saya would be laqured bright colors and very finely to reflect the wealth of its owner, which contrasted the subdued taste of the Samurai Class.
aright, japanese swords are made by many companies in the world today, the most popular being Paul Chen who runs a forge in Dailan China. His blades are fairly good in quality, though it does vary from blade to blade. His best, the folded steel line is very high quality indeed.
His price break down is failrly simple.
His cheapest sword that he produces is called the Practical Katana. It has a hand forged, differentally tempered blade, however, the fittings (koshirae) hold no traditional value, the handle is made of wood, but the rayskin is abs plastic and the ornaments are made from plastic as well. The unfortunet thing about Paul Chen's blades is that the wood used in the saya and the tsuka, are both soft wood, unlike the traditional honoki wood used in traditional japanese swords. Anyway, this particular blade runs for 175 on most sites and is a reasonable buy for a seemingly well made blade.
His most expensive blade runs for about 1600 and is from his folded steel line. Again it uses the same soft wood as his other swords, but the blade is folded steel and has an exquisite engraving. The fittings are top knotch and the saya is laquered a gorgeous shade of red from the Momoyama period.
Paul Chen blades run in that price range and very in quality and size and shape. However, in terms of martial arts swords, they are very limited because the size of the blade cannot be changed unlike other manufactorors such as Last legend.
However, when we begin to talk about Authentic Japanese Swords, price make a jump from that 1600 to somewhere around 10,000. for a lower level smith, the price for a blade is usually around 5,000 and has a waiting list maybe 3 years in length. for a upper level smith they can fetch up to 10,000 for a blade alone without Koshirae. For the highest level smith, Ningen Kokuho, they can fetch upwards of 30,000 for a blade withouth fittings. their waiting list can be up to 8 years in length since there are two of them in the country. However, there are more than 250 smiths in Japan.
Generally, many of the swords youll see on Ebay are rips. so beware when buying from there. Anyhow, that particular sword is an iaito, an unsharp blade used in the practice of iaido. Nagasone Kotetsu was ranked as an O-wazamono sword smith and his blades are precious and very rare.
Please, forgive my ignorance Gensai, but i don't know exactly what you mean by "folded steel."
A Chinese man making Japanese swords?, thats new to me.
What is the difference between an Iaido sword and some other kind of sword. Couldn't you do Iaido with any type of Katana. I don't get the whole "Iaido sword" thing.
Wouldn't you want the wood for the saya and tsuka(please tell me what those are again), to be hard wood,...like it was back then, just because it was.
I wasn't looking to buy a sword, i only dream,=(. I wouldn't bother buying one, it would just sit on my wall, collecting dust. It would be destend to just sit there. And that, i couldn't have. Very dis-respectful i believe.=(, what can i do?,..=(,...well, at least i have my dreams.=)
aright, folded steel means that there are layers to it. There is a soft core and a hard outer shell. The steel is folded into its self and pounded out many many times, thus producing a close knit cystalline structure.
well, authentic Japanese swords are very expensive, so Paul Chen, Nihontsuki Forge, Oni Forge and several other Taiwanese and Chinese Forges create high quality swords made in the same fashion as the Japanese did, while these cannot be considered authentic Japanese swords, they are very close in make and also are very good martial arts swords.
yes you can do iaido with any type of katana, i personally run through a wide number of iaido techniques every day with both an iaito and a shinken. the differences are small but are important. The first and most noticable, is that its unedged. This makes it safe for a beginer to practice iaido within a group. Secondly, often times iaito are made from a alloy of metals which make it impossible to sharpen. There are a wide number of companies that make a whole range of quality of iaito
The tsuka is the handle of the sword and the saya is the scabbard. Anyway, yes you would want harder wood, but its somewhat of a cut corner method to making there parts which comprimises the swords saftey by a bit. But if properly used, then there shouldnt be any problems.
anyway, you can get a display sword for very cheap maybe....80 dollars and it would look good sitting in an office or something of that sort. its something to think about.
=), i don't think i could ever do that. I would be so tempted to pick it up, and try to do Iaido with it(=(, remember that i have no idea about anything to do with Iaido) But, i'm only 14, i have time to find a teacher, and be able to pay for it.=). What bothers me the most though, is the earier you start, the better off you'll be. I wouldn't want to start at like, age 20-or higher.
Thank you for answering my question.
Which is better though, for a sword, High Carbon steel or folded?
(I don't to ask personal questions, if you don't want to answer it, i completely understand. I was just wondering, Do you feel, like you got the most out of your training, that you possibly could. If you had to fight, with a sword, to survive, or to save someone, you could. When that person has training as well. do you know what i mean. Once again, i do not mean to ask personal questions, i completely understand, if you wish to not answer. But, i'm just wondering, how you feel about the 9 years you have been training.)
Thank you again,
well folded and forged are two methods of making a sword, they're both made for Carbon Steel, however, the better is folded.
hrm, yes i do believe i got the most out of my training, however, its more on a spiritual level than on a physical one. Kachi wa saya no naka ni ari, means victory comes while the sword is still sheathed. numerous proverbial sayings about swordsmenship mention that the strongest sword is the one that stays sheathed. that being that, fighting will rarely solve anything. Once a sword is drawn, what remains but corpses in the dirt?
Human life no matter how bad the person is, is precious. there are those who perhaps deserve death, but to kill them, then dont you also deserve the same fate?
Its all a matter of being mentally prepared. Though i can swing my blade, can i kill is more an appropriate question. To cut bamboo and tatami mats is one thing, but to take a human life, that is entirely different. A human breathes, moves, loves, hates, eats, shits, all of those things, can you take those from someone? can you destroy a person? Its one thing to say "yes i can kill" and another to put a blade to a persons throat and pull. When you hear the pleads of someone begging for their life, can your sword strike true? In the moment of death, will you be able to see life and strike?
Mental preperation is much a part of swordsmenship as the training. There is much more to kenjutsu than just swinging a blade.
Remember, the sword was created for one purpose, and one purpose only, to kill. no matter how you cover it with sweet words, its true, dirty nature will always be apparent. Ken wa Kyoki, Kenjutsu wa Satsujinjutsu, "The sword is a weapon, and kenjutsu is made to kill".
they say Katsujinken means the sword that saves life, but, Satsujinken Katsujinken says The sword that takes life is the sword that protects life. Kill one to save the many, this is kenjutsu.
What can i say, the words you speak, are deffinitly ones that truely believe. Your words, are absultely extrodentary. To ask such a question to see what would come of it, then to hear that,...its just breath taking. I believe every word of it Sir, your words are so wonderful. I wish, to one day, truely experience what you have. For me right now, i understand, the "need to kill inorder to live", well is really over. Sword-fighting now, is as you said. "More on a spiritual level. Its just like any other Martial Art. One could take Kenpo, and never have to use it in his life, but what you get out of it, is far more precious. Doesn't matter if you ever fight or not.
My question, wasn't aimed towards,"Would you kill somone", more, towards, "How do you feel about your training." I didn't mean to give a wrong impression.
Because, in a way, i feel lost in mine. I don't feel i am getting out of it, what I my mind truely longs for. I'm curantly, taking a Kaju-Kenpo class. But, i don't feel, i am truely receiving what i should. Don't get me wrong, the teachers, are not Dis-resoectful, or anything of the such, i just believe, their views on training, maybe different than mine. I'm looking for "traditional training." I want to learn, like the Japanese once did. Because, i believe nothing else is better. I feel lost, like this isn't what i'm supposed to be in. I don't want to train 2 more years, to find out, thats its not. But, i'm under contract for 2 more years, and money at the moment is tight(which, with these gas prices who isn't), and i'm afraid, that i can't find anything i'm looking for,(that parents could pay for.), i'm just, feeling lost, with it, but, i look forward to it everyday. I look forward, to know, that i'm learning a Martial Art. And theres a brown/black belt, 62 years of age she is, but one strong Judo fighter, I, look up to her, I see her as, a "Mentor", maybe more than my actual Senseis. because she came from a traditional type of school,she has that,...well, feeling about her. I look up to her, for wisdom and knowledge, and well, she just has that feeling about her, of someone, i want to follow.
I would like to learn some Chinese arts, Drunken Boxing, Eight-Step Mantis. I Love Tai-Chi. But, thats a different story. I guess, maybe my problem goes on, because my list does to.
Can you help me Gensai?, I'm i just still in an ignorant stange of training,(at Green/Blue belt level) and i haven't found it yet. Or is my list to long, and should give those ideas up, and only worry about what i am curantly training in. I ask for your help, Mr.Gensai, can you help a lost Martial Artist?
Thank you for your time and cooperation.
Thank you, again.
well, in this world, modern life, is as such, that martial training such as kenjutsu or kempo, taijutsu, karatedo, or any of these "martial arts" are needed. We're locked in a world in which hand to hand combat is a last resort, in which swords and staffs are weapons of the past. in this world, training is minimalistic at best. A Soldier today will train for a good part of 5 years before being sent into battle, and in times of war such as these, maybe as little as 2. In the times of the samurai, a child would begin his training from his first steps, though it may not be martial arts. His life was his training. The samurai trained for hours everyday, reading, writing, martial arts, tea ceremony, all things that would be necessary for life. even minial tasks such as cooking were necessary. for the samurai, life wasnt like it is today. They're job was to be a warrior, thus they trained. in a given day upwards of 5000 kata were practiced and somewhere close to 2000 pracitce cuts on bamboo. Today a typical work out is maybe 50 to 100 kata and maybe 50 practice cuts. a far cry from the world of the samurai, but then the samurai were warriors, not everyday people. Traditional training is something that is hard to find, in fact its not something youll ever see, even if you find a Kenjutsu Dojo, which is firstly very very hard to find, even then practice is limited. even if the martial arts are you life, even then, training such as that is something youll rarely see. Dedication is onething, perfection is quite another. Life was the pursuit of not happiness, but the pursuit of the perfection of whatever it was they pursued. Traditional training? hard to find, the best you can put in is dedication and hard work. But train not with desperation, or worry that your not getting anything out of it, but that you understand that your pursuing a path that was abandonded by the world years before. Remember those who walked the path before you, the greatest warriors of all time, Musashi Miyamoto, Yagyuu Jubei, Katsura Kogorou, all great men, walked this path, the path of the sword, instead of seeing it as not getting anything out of it, see it as following in their footsteps.
*stands in awe*, Your words, Mr.Gensai, mean more to me, than you'll ever know. I feel, so much at ease now. My lost sort of feeling, slowly dies, and drifts away with the passing wind.
I will Mr. Gensai, i will, train with all my heart, and not with despair. And, be like the great men who have done the same before me.. The world abanded these great teachings, but i won't, i will pursue, with all my heart and soul, the world of Martial Arts.
With this said Mr.Gensai, I have yet again another question to ask of you. I'm going to train hard, for i now, can feel the passion inside of me, Do you know, of any "Traditional Training", I can do, on a daily basesis. I once in a while, do Hibo-dachi, I'm working towards an hour. My dad said, he'll build Monkey Polls, in my back yard,...Which are polls, the Chinese used, for balanceing. I do, the whole, Six-inches thing. *laying down, i put my hands under my back, and lift my feet above the ground, sixinches, and do flutter kicks.*, I Love those, and all the other ones as well.
I'm just wondering, of any, real, good training, things i can do.
I Thank you grealy,Gensai,
I Thank you, with all my heart.
well traditional training usually consisted of just repeating kata. the forms are very important and they were practiced over and over again. the same with cutting (tameshigiri). Traditionally, bodies were used to test swords. A convicted criminal was beheaded by the Kubiuchi Doshin (prison executioner) and then the body and head were brought to a mound and tied down to it with stakes and rope. Then a designated swordsmen known a O-tameshiyaku, would test the sword. There were several practiced cuts, on the abdomen, legs, and arms. this ensured that the sword in question would be able to cut through the bone in times of crisis. A final cut called Migen Tatewari was preformed which was a vertial cut between the eyebrows. This again ensured that the sword would cut through bone. While on their own, the samurai would practice on bamboo, both green and yellow. now in these days, Tatami is used. the top layer on tatami mats is taken off and soaked in water and then let dry, once dry they're wrapped up and put on a post and cuts are made. typically a mat will produce up to 6 cuts. so, thats one traditional method, but is dangerous without proper teaching, or supervision. When dealing with Japanese swords, we now are talking about a razor sharp sword, able to slice through bone and flesh with out getting nicked or broken. so were talking about one of the finest cutting swords on earth, so...CAUTION is needed when dealing with Shinken.
one very important thing is balance. In all martial arts balance is extremely important. Centering your body is most important because youll be able to react in many different ways. so, those balancing posts are a good idea, if you have a bokken, carefully, try practicing some kata on them to get a feel for being balanced at all times. Actually, in the days of the samurai, one could tell how much training one had simply by how they walked. A samurai would walk in perfect balance, always perfectly ready to draw their sword and defend themselves. Even things like eating were tell tale signs of samurai training. When eating they would hold the bowl with their thumb tucked in the rim of the bowl to get a good grip on it so if someon came up and struck the bowl it wouldnt spill hot soup into their face, also when using hashi (chopsticks) they would put food into the side of their mouth so someone couldnt hit the ends and stick them down their throat leaving them vulnerable. these things were obvious seperations from the world of the pheaseant and the world of the samurai.
I don't know, much about the sword, Mr.Gensai. The world of Katanas is sometinhg i am not aware of. I do though, have a bokken. For, when someday i find a teacher. I hope, that soon, i will be able to help my dad put those posts into the ground, so i can balance on them. I would practise out there for hours on end on those posts. I feel, much more passionate, about my Kempo training though, Mr. Gensai. That i do. And, even though my list goes on, of things i so dearly want to learn, i train my hardest, in the art i am in now.
One thing about my school though, is that they are not "to big" on respect. Now, i don't mean, that you can be dis-repsectful to them, and others, and get away with it. the form of respect i am talking about, is more truer respect. For example; when i am sitting down in a chair, and a Sensei walks by, I believe you should always stand up, and maybe go into a "Fudo-dachi". or sometimes i just stand up, and put my arms to my side,...as if i were going to bow.
They don't believe you have to, and don't stress the fact that you have to. I believe I do though. Another I blieve; You never stand above the Sensei, When the Sensei kneels, you kneel lower. I do this expessially during the time when they are handing out "stripes" for our belts. if my teacher kneels down,...i kneel down,...(right knee down first, then my left), and i am always on my 2 knees, while kneeling I never just kneel on one.
If the Sensei is talking to another person, and I really must tell them something. I stand next to them, and stand in "fudo-dachi", when the reconize me being there, I stand up, (arms to my side, and bow), then, i say what i needed to say.
I just wanted to share, what i do, within my class. I strongly believe, that "Respect is the fondation of the Martial Arts."
With out Respect, the Martial Arts, become nothing more than "Brawling, and childish actions."
As, i demand that of myself, to give to those who need it,...i would, apreciate, that being done for me, (when of course that time comes, if it comes anyway, that i get to be a Sensei.)
I think that's enough talking from me right now,...thank you very much Gensai for helping me.
well if youd ever like an explination of the japanese sword, please feel free to ask through PM or through a messenger.
respect is something that is huge not only in the martial arts, but in all asian culture. Our world is based around respect through everything that we do.
Well *coughs* now a days respect like they had back then is rather....ummm dead. it still exists, like if you yawn during a business meeting....NOT GOOD.
anyhow, where are you located right now? i may be able to find you a dojo to study at, or suggest somewhere you can go.
I would greatly enjoy talking to you on IM, if you so desire.
Well, Mr. Gensai, I am greatly honored and grateful that you wish to help me. But, sadly so, money is an issue. As much as i so dearly long to learn a sword art, it just,(at this time, ) isn't possible. I would though, love to start as soon as i can. But, all in good time, i'll see if it becomes something in my life that i can pursue. And, if it doesn't, then i will continue to dream, the rest of my days.
for; "Whats great about a dream, is its a fantisy, if it comes true, then its no longer a dream."
I will never stop, being as much respectful, as i can. even though, some don't igknowledge it, doesn't mean i will stop doing it. just me knowing, that i am doing as much as i know, is as respectful as i know, makes me happy. Maybe, one day they will igknowledge it,..but, if not, it won't bring me down.
I thank you Gensai, a good night to you sir.
alright lets see the closest kenjutsu to hiten-mitsurugi is that of furanui kenjutsu, but kamikawa was a adopted child, so that is not his real name and his style used the batto-jutsu every now and again it wasnt his favorite stance. the best kenjutsu to day is that of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu which is a very old art and is rumored to be faster than kamikawas style.
and there are no sakabatou style of kenjutsu since swords were made to killand that is that.....but there are a few places that make and sell this style of sord which is modeled after a tanto with the name of kubikiri. and here is a place to get a shinken version http://www.jidai.jp/yks001.asp
I dont know why But that Sword Looks a Bit fake It might be that its seems really thick or that its golden
and Looks Like Plastic
I Also Thought It was Impossible to Make a Real Sakabato
BTW Use the Edit Button plz
Edit: NM I guess they have started to make them RECENTLY
But back in the day they did not have sakabatos =O
Actually, very little is known about Furanui Kenjutsu, since it died with Kawakami Gensai. Gensai was adopted, actually there is no record of his style ever using Iai-jutsu.
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is the oldest style of Bujutsu, that includes Iaijutsu. All together it is an ecclectic form of martial arts that includes, Aikido, So-jutsu, Naginata Jutsu, Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu.
as for the Sakabatou, it is entirely a fictional sword. However, as mentioned, Tanto did exist known as Kubikiri, which translates to "Head Cutter" which had an edge on the inside curvature (Extreme Uchi Sori). This type of knife could have had many different uses, and its unsure of which it was used. Its name suggests that it may have been carried by samurai attendants whose job it was to cut off the heads of dead enemies. It was possible it had utilitarion uses, such as ikebana or bonsai. Perhaps it was simply a badge of rank worn by those of high rank. Its real use was unknown, however, many of the known examples date from the late Meiji to Showa Jidai, in which sword smiths had little work producing traditional swords.
and that Sakabatou is fake, its hamon is etched, possible acid etched. and its made from a form of Aluminium, which bends and breaks, quite easily.
and as mentioned, please use the edit button to add new items or delete old ones. Thanks
Kenshin's style is based on hitokiri Gensai's
Watsuki has said more than once that Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu is a made up style, very little is known about Furanui Kenjutsu. So little that its not known even what it typical stances were.