Rurouni Kenshin Schools and Techniques.

well, let me challenge you on that point. you say you've had good sucess at it which i dont doubt, ive used variations of Kenshin's waza numerous times in duels. but, its not a question of whether or not you can preform the technique, its wether or not you can perform the technique with lightning speed in the middle of a duel. Its also a point of where, many of Kenshin's waza are only usable in certain situations and if that particual situation never appears the waza becomes useless. Kenshin and other anime as well as movies and drama about the samurai throughout the ages are somewhat improper in their showing of swordplay. typically, a duel between swordsmen was about 2 or 3 seconds long usually dependant on the matter of a few inches or perhaps an ineffective move or perhaps even something as small as one man slipping. the point is, using drawn out techniques and long kata prove to be very ineffective a true match. ive poured almost 10 years into the study of Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu from a traditional standpoint and will continue until my dying breath. and i must conclude although the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuha are doable as well as even perhaps, Godspeed, it is perhaps a useless in a true duel.

It must be considered that although many swordsmen trained for many years learning different sets of waza and kata. In a duel, kata become useless and waza only hinder. its not your knowledge of certain techniques that will allow you to win the fight its your knowledge of your opponent and being able to predict how he will move. most fight were won not with complicated moves and powerful technique but with basic strikes.

kata only aid in strengthening your arms and strengthening your mind not how you will win the fight.

as for practice, you know the saying "Practice makes perfect" which is true.

 

You do bring a very good point about and are exactly correct. While complicated techniques and waza are ultimatly usless to most people in split second combate, they are still usfull to hiten mistsurugi trainees. First of all, learning hiten mistsurugi as a whole is not just the practice of learning all of its techniques and waza, that would only be one third of the total practice. Hiten Mitsurugi, in itself, has to do with not only the speed of the sword which is the whole of its different techniques, but of the mind and body also. These two aspect go hand in hand with what you have stated about being able to know your opponent. With a fast mind, it is easier to be fast in everything else and thus, the lightining speed of hiten mitsurugi is less intimidating. With this overall knoladge, using the tecniques in battle at lightning speed becomes much more feesable. Even though the events in short, real battles may not leave opertunities for hiten misturugi waza, we find that every hit that kenshin usues is not from his technique list. His technique list is ment to be comprised of the more devistating and lethal blows that he issues, some of which are only seen once in the manga and anime. This brings up the fact that lightning speed is not has impossible as it has bee played out to be. Olympic sprinters have been clocked at 25.78 miles per hour. From the manga and anime of Rurouni Kenshin, hiten mistsurugi is not more than 3 mile per hour over this. Besides, Kenshin has even said that is hiten mitsurugi required response from the nervous system as fast as humanly possible, this does bring a deffenit limite to the speed in which we are dealing with. Instead of hiten mitsurugi being played as god-like, it just seems that way because it is on the boarder of the human limits.

When the day comes to test you on the ultimate technique of hiten mistsurugi,you must be ready. For on that day, one of us will die, and one of us will live. Pray that the one that lives is you, it is what I have been training you for all this time.-Kenshins master ( when asked about the special techniques of hiten mitsurugi)

 

quite right...

there is a reason why i liked Rurouni Kenshin OVA better than the Anime, which is that Kenshin doesnt use any "special" attacks. he simply relys on his speed and knowledge of sword styles, things that a true swordsmen of the period, and for all periods of Japan's history would have relied upon.


and its not just Hiten Mitsurugi, all manners of Ryuuha rely on mind, body and sword.

Kendo, perhaps more properly called, Kenjutsu, relies on more than just the swing of a sword. All dojos that teach kenjutsu or kendo have their students prepare mentally for many hours before teaching them to hold a sword or anything in the manner of fighting.

 

Whats OVA?

 

It means "Original Video Animation." Meaning that it is a direct video release (went straight to video, no movies or TV shows)

 

OAV is the same thing, it means Original Animation Video

 

You are right. Many techniques are powerful, and you may know how to perform them, but alot of people who just practice the tecniques havent brought into consideration when, or how, or what technique they would perform during battle. (If they ever needed to go into battle) I know quite a few people who think that just because they know more techniques, that they can beat anyone. It is important to know techniques; but you must balance those techniques with the knowledge of when, or what technique to use. And they must understand, that sometimes you will not be given the opportunity to perform the technique you want. Most of the time, the battles will be determined by small factors, such as a simple slash, movement, etc. You need to know how to think in battles, to know when something will work or not. You need to know how to add moves onto some techniques to make them effective. I like using the Gatotsu. Even if it is just a made up technique. (I am trying to find how to perform the real technique of the real Saitou, I believe it was called left-handed-thrust, something like that.If anyone could help, it would be appreciated.) Heck, its already good just considering it uses the left hand. Many swordsmen are used to fighting opponets who use their right hand. This makes it hard to attack, considering they will have to draw their sword, move to the left, and try to attck from the left, a side they may not be used to attacking from, because in the meantime, their opponet is coming down their left side. They might also underestimate their opponet, thinking they might not know what they are doing using their left hand. However, its important to know how to incorporate moves into alot of techniques, for many techniques will be useless against some, while effective against others. For example, when I charge with the Gatotsu, and stab, I dont just wait there, expecting it to hit them. I put moves in, slashes, moving, a couple punches, kicks,try several diffrent forms of the gatotsu, get some distance, then try the gatotsu again.(If the battle even lasts long enough to do all that; most battles are short, unless your opponet is on equal par with you. I have encountered some battles that last long) If its effective already, why not make it more effective? Many people need too understand; techniques are great, especially if they work. But thats IF they work. Then you will have to do other things, simple things. Dont just keep trying techniques till they work, you will get killed. Remember, simple things are a HUGE part of swordsmanship. Thats how techniques are created. From various moves, then you combine them. Try making your own techniques, use simple things, put them together, then try challenging yourself by creating harder techniques. Most of all, learn from what you do. Have a great day yall.



P.S I have to say,Hitokiri_Genshai ,your knowledge of swords, sword tecniques, and history, etc. is quite astounding. You know what your talking about, I have to give you that! Perhaps you would like to talk sometime about techniques, styles, and Japan history? PM me if you want to talk. Have a nice day.

 

Wow, it seems that H,M,R master, Hajime Saitou, Hitokiri_Gensai know what you all are talking about. What styles of martial arts, swordsmanship do you three take? And can anyone tell me what Rurouni Kenshin tech. can be done, and if they are effective? Thanks

 

i practice 4 Budo, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, Naginatajutsu, and a bit of Aikido.

in terms of Kenjutsu i study a mix of Niten Ichi Ryuu and Yagyu Ryuu.

For Iaijutsu i study Katori Shinto Ryuu.


if you read the beggining of the post youll see all about Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu and its techniques.

 

firstly, i must say, although Saitou's Left handed thrust was powerful, the Nihontou is still not made for stabbing techniques. the curve of the blade combined with the curve of the tip render it almost solely as a cutting weapon.

as for left handed techniques they are not more powerful or more useful than a right handed technique. they simple are a reverse of a right handed attack and therefore are not considered to be any different than a right handed attack. the only true attack considered to be, by ancient and modern swordsmen, to be of a true problem were strikes from the air. Because of the laws of physics, I.e. Gravity, a strike from the air would combine the power of the downward strike with the pull of gravity, making the cut more powerful. This principle is what makes the Ryuu Tsui Sen of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu to be such a practical technique. HOWEVER, for it to be practical, i.e. within reason, the one making this attack must be at a height atleast the height of the opponent, while jumping this high may seem doable, i tell you now, it is very difficult to obtain.

the Hirazuki which was the technique that spawned Saitou's Left Handed Thrust, was a powerful technique, but one has to remember, when stabbing you cannot change the direction of motion without stopping. so, once in motion until you 've stopped your left open from both your left and right and from above and below. Simply put, stabbing techniques are not worth relying on. while it can be argued that Saitou, Okita, Kondo, Hijikata and many other members of the Shinsengumi relied on such techniques, it must be remembered, that they also relied on other strikes and a stab was a secondary move to a "slash".
Also, one has to remember, that while punching or kicking in a similar motion to a stab, your foot or fist has some width to it as well as flexability hence kicking and punching are effective in a fight. the width of a Nihontou is about 1/4 of a centimetre, which is a obviously, not very wide. And since the blade is of course steel with no joints in it, its quite a small object. so, a stab unless unexpected. i.e. a stab from behind or in extrememly close range, its simplicity itself to side step even the most powerful or well placed stab.

as for "being on par" with someone else, in a duel it really doesnt matter how well trained you are, although it will help you to read your opponent. Now, Obviously a novice wielding a nihontou is not only a stupid idea, but if one were to get into a fight, more than likely, they would die. but, it must be remembered, that no matter how powerful you may or may not be, all it takes is for someone to step even a hairs width too far to be killed. Simply, human error is a great cause of death. even if your the worlds best swordsmen, if you step even a tiny bit to far it can mean the difference between life and death.

as for "Creating techniques" its not worth the time that you would spend, your mind is only a half step infront of your body in a duel where a blade is moving well over 90 miles and hour. its at that point where you try to remember that technique you learned where you die. your mind tries to think of a technique and your body fumbles through trying to keep up and you soon find yourself looking at the edge of a sword as it cuts you down. simply, you must learn and understand kata and assorted waza but you must also make it into instinct.


H,M,R, Master,
you are quite right that studying and knowing are the key to sucess.

but i wonder where you got that Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu is only 3 miles an hour faster than 25.78. there is nothing in the manga, OVA, or TV series that ever states the speed in miles an hour. Kenshin's speed is described as "Faster than the eye can follow" now, youll quickly find that it is very easy, to follow the movements of something moving at only 25 miles an hour, actually youll come to find that its easy to follow something moving 4 times that speed, it actually takes something moving almost 150 miles an hour before your eye begins to lag behind it. and it also depends on how far you are from whatever it is your watching. I can stand a half mile away and watch something perfectly well thats moving over 200 miles an hour, but when im standing but a few feet from it you see but and after image of it. so, if youll bear with me for a second, Kenshin is moving impossibly fast, beyond the phsycal limits of a normal human being, i.e. everyone.

 

Yeah, I tried the left hand thrust with my Nihontou...didnt work out as cool as he does it. Which is why when I use the thrust, I use one of my ninja swords, which have a straight blade. But...I dont like that sword too much, which is prolly why its in my closet.

As for the creating techniques thing I said, I did not mean create a tecnique in battle, that would get you killed. Im sorry if I made it look that way
What I meant was, create various techniques that you feel comfortable with when training or practicing, because when fighting you will revert back to the things you feel most comfortable with. And if you have a more broad range of techniques, then you have more techniques for all kinds of different situations. But most the time battles are determined by simple movements i.e., a slash, footwork especially, etc. You always use techniques that you remember, if you stop, even for a second to think about how to do the technique, you will die. Thats why its important to practice techniques, footwork, etc. that way it just somes naturally. It is not good to use techniques too much. Most the time it is simple things people often forget about that win battles. Techniques are good, but they become better when you incorporate other things after or before you have performed techniques.

As for "human error" you are quite right. Everything you do, every movement that you make, is essential. The tiniest mishap could bring diaster. It really doesnt make that much difference if you are the best swordsman, a simple problem that did not seem possible or irrevelant, suddenly becomes a BIG problem. That is why you must be prepared mentally and physically.
However, now one gets away without making some kind of error. After all, no one is perfect.

 

eitherway, the practicality of a so called "Ninjatou" is questionable as well as historically inaccurate. truly, history points that a ninja was much more likely to use a Nihontou of the tachi or buke zukuri style mountings. however, sources also say that more than likely, the sword that the ninja use was simply a piece of sharpened steel. to a Samurai his sword is his soul and losing it or dishonoring it was a grave offense and could warrent death, but to the ninja his sword was simply another tool. not only a weapon but a tool used to prying to using as a stepping tool or perhaps even used to scale a wall. so, having a fine blade such as those made by the famous swords smith, Masamune, or his infamous pupil Muramasa, would be a waste because it would quickly dull and be scratched and beat up in a varying amount time from being used as a tool. so, perhaps, the "ninjatou" is not curved but simply a straight piece of sharpened steel, eitherway, it presents itself not as a weapon of extreme beauty and artistic merit, but as a tool and nothing more. However, there is no historical evidence that points that the ninja, or shinobi, used anything different from the weapons of the Samurai.

unlike European blades such as the "Small Sword" or the Archer's sword, the Nihontou has a defined curve as well as a curved tip with a single edge, which in turn means the Nihontou is classified as a "saber", meaning that its intent is for cutting in a "drawcut" motion which is a technique which is more commonly know as a "slash". true a single edged sword is useable in a stabs, its more that its curved which presents a problem. because of the curve the blade, althought it may dig in a cut deeply, will slide towards the tip, meaning that its going to slide away from your victim rather than sink in.

as for making up techniques i wasnt refering to them in battle, rather that it remains impractical to force your body to make up techniques that are drawn out and what not, combining simple steps and simple cuts is, ofcourse, a different matter.

 

Your all right on every count, and it's sounds to me that your masters. But the thing is, is that there is only 2 things that you do in a fight: You either disable your opponent by rendering him unconscience, cutting off a limb, ect... or killing your opponent. What is said in Ruruoni Kenshin is very true: "To teach the art of swordsmanship is to teach the art of killing..." But it doesn't always have to be taken to that level. And that is true for all forms of martial arts. It is still possible to kill with either weapon or empty hand martial arts, but i can't stress enough that it doesn't have to be taken to that level every single time.

About waza and kata...remember what Bruce Lee said about a rehearsed rutine, in his last movie the Game of Death? (please correct me if i word this wrong) He pretty much said, that a rehearsed rutine can't keep up with broken rythem. This is very true for all forms of martial arts. Waza and kata are ok. Like u said, they do strength the body, but they won't help in a fight one bit

 

and they are much more things to do in a fight. when im teaching i prefer to not stop the fight or attack but to keep defending his strokes until he realizes that the fight is useless and he needs to reevaluate his strategy.

also you must realize that in terms of martials arts today expecially Kenjutsu and other forms of edged weaponry is of course simply for the purpose of strengthening the mind and body and perhaps to keep tradition alive in the martial way. but in the times when Kenjutsu was truly what it was meant to be, i.e. "satsujin" "killing technique" a fight was to the death everytime, you werent fighting for the simple purpose of strengthening your body, rather for your life. once the fight had started, it was your life or his, there was no other ending to the battle. so...practicality provides the purpose of the fight and you must take in the reason of the fight as much as who your opponent is.

oh btw, the quote from Kenshin reads "Kenjutsu wa Satsujin Jutsu" which translates out to "Kenjutsu is the art of killing"

 

I know that the times have changed. We learn the martial arts to keep the triditions alive. And of course we don't go outside with a sword or anything. I'm just saying, whenever you get caught in a situation, were you nmight have to defend urself, lets say in a parking lot at night, or an alley. The thugs don't leave you a way out, so you defend yourself. They're armed, and there just happens to be a pipe you could grab. I'm not saying this will happen, just a possiblity. Even today, we still have to be prepared.

I also have a question: Is Battou and Iai 2 diffrent sword drawing arts? or just 2 names for the same art?

 

it happens...trust me...and while most people dont carry a Nihontou around, i do carry a bokken quite often.

Battou and Iai are two names for the same art. "Battou" more or less means "to draw". (the kanji "ba" means draw, and the kanji "tou" means sword) aka to draw a sword. hence, battoujutsu is "sword drawing techniques" but the proper and more well known name for battoujutsu is "iaijutsu". now the particular Kanji used in "iai" means to sit. the reason for using such kanji isnt entirely known but there are a few stances which start from a kneeling position or drop to a kneeling position.

now "jutsu" refers to "technique" so, iaijutsu is more or less refering to the actual cuts and stances while "iaido" means the way of drawing the sword. like Kenjutsu refers more to the killing aspect while "Kendo" refers more to "the way of the sword"

 

Hi! I would like to tell you that you need no dojo to learn kenjutsu. The true knowledge of the sword is within the sword. Get a katana... sit and meditate on it... train hard what you get out from it. It takes time and hard work...

PD: There is no hitenmitsurugi style, GET REAL!

 

well...thats sorta true...not entirely...actually thats a very small part of it. far too many people consider themselves versed in the way of the sword because they own a katana and maybe saw the movie Yojimbo or something like that. they hardly have the knowledge or the experience to really say they know about Kenjutsu. such people shame the study of Kenjutsu and Nihontou.

while its true that the study of the sword takes many years, it also takes proper training and ettiquite. Meditation is a huge part of Kenjutsu and is necessary for the development of the mind, however, just meditation alone is not enough to truly develop a true sense of Kenjutsu.


as for Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu, although the school itself never existed, it holds the true essance of Kenjutsu in it. it embodies all parts of Kenjutsu from the proper training of the mind, to proper training of the sword.

 

I've been training for several years, but most of it was self training. When i finally went to a dojo, and learned from someone who acctually knew what he was talking about, i was glad i went. I realized that i had missed something when i was self training. A mentor. And trust me, there's nothing better then learning from someone who knows what there talking about.

As for Hetin Mitsurugi, of course it didn't really exist. But if anything, it would be a philosophical style.

 

I know... but i am talking about MANY years of hard training.... Even people with no mentor (one out of a hundred) might succeed in self training...because it is a "special" person... but... 5 of 10... would also succeed if trains for 20 or 25 years... the clue is meditation and dedication... rememeber that most of the great swordsmans retired to caverns as hermits to train..... What this kind of people might get is not the art of kenjutsu... for that.. .you need a master... but one gets the art of living... a way of fighting... no etiquette or kata... but when come to a fight... the results can amaze you.