Satan?

Discussion in 'Dragon Ball' started by Mordeth, Apr 3, 2002.

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  1. ~ Zack ~

    ~ Zack ~ Guest

    After typing in "satan" into a little on-line Japanese-English dictionary thingy I use often it came back with the results "Satan" and also meaning "left end, left edge". Just... thought I'd add that in.
     
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  2. Ciel

    Ciel Unoa Freak
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    I really like your signature, ArkAnjil. it sounds like something ArchBishop Fulton J Sheen said. and its really true.

    I don't find anything really wrong with a character called Satan, I find it amusing. But perhaps its because I am cautious and watch out for things that can be dangerous to me, or my kids in the future. As long as I know, and am aware, I believe I am alright. but really cool observation of the raising of the hands and crying Satan to the heavens. It sounds like an observation I would have made for my grade 12 English media presentation on the New Age movement in children's movies and programming and how it is harmful to the Christian Faith.
     
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  3. mirai_trunks

    mirai_trunks Guest

    The whole family is named for demons. Mr. Satan. His daughter, Videl and grand-daughter, Pan.

    The censors won't let stuff like this go to a "kids' show", but somehow they let Majunior go by.

    Now that I think about it, it's weird that a false hero's name is Satan.
     
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  4. GentatsuNoZanshi cc61

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    I thought Pan was a lesser Greek god ... they guy with the flute, ya?
     
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  5. Wolfwood

    Wolfwood New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #25
  6. Vash

    Vash New Member

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    Yeah, what they said!
    Geez luvweaver, are you really a manga and anime fan or are you just hanging around to try to save a few fallen souls?
     
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  7. Legato

    Legato Shakkin Daiou

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    Heres a deal for you weaver, don't preach, and I won't break my foot off in your asse. :D
    Remember, putting a "smiley" next to a post makes it a joke, just like MO said. Can't take a joke?:D :D :D :D :D

    Idiot.:D :D :D :D
     
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  8. Mordeth

    Mordeth Mordeth Vult!

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    aye, pan was the god of mischief wasn't he?

    he had the legs of a goat, and teh body of a man .. nothing at all like the devil :p
     
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  9. mirai_trunks

    mirai_trunks Guest

    The version of Pan with the goat legs and body of a man was the model used by most of the medieval drawing of what a demon looks like. In some tarot circles, the image of Pan is constantly used as the form of the devil.

    Here's a liitle something on Pan:
    In myth, Hermes fathered Pan on the nymph Dryope. The child was so ugly at birth, (horns, beard, tail and goat-legs), that his mother ran away from him in fear. Hermes however, carried him up to Olympus for the gods' amusement. Pan haunted the woods and pastures of Arcadia and personified the fertile, phallic spirit of the wild, untamed nature of the beast.
     
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  10. ~ Zack ~

    ~ Zack ~ Guest

    As I always say, paranoia's a *****... especially when you think anime creators are devil-worshippers and satanists. Of course, that's just my opinion.
     
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  11. luvweaver

    luvweaver Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    My reasons

    OK i think it's time to explain myself.

    Why don't I like a character named "Satan" in DBZ?

    Well. Imagine this.

    You're a jew who has survived the holocaust. And then you see this TV show, and find out that one of the characters who battle evil is called "Hitler". And then in an episode, you see thousands of people yelling "Hail Hitler! Hail Hitler!"

    How would you feel, huh?

    Well - I've seen the suffering of people because of evil. And I believe that the first person who caused this evil - this suffering to them (rape, violence, innocent people being killed, etc etc), is Satan. No, he's not a "mythical figure". What a shame - "hey i'm a christian and i don't feel offended". What kind of christians? Oh boy.

    Just TWO WORDS.

    September 11.

    I think that's more than enough to hate Satan, don't you think?

    If you don't feel offended by a show where the name of Satan is praised by everyone in the world, then woe to you.

    Yes, I have a reason to be touchy about this. Sorry.
     
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  12. Sachiko

    Sachiko happy SMJ shoujo ^_^

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    Hey......

    I'm a Christian too! There's nothing with preaching, being an anime fan, and worshipping at the same time! I mean it because I am all those.

    I hope you won't hate me now.. But I'm telling all of you that I am also a child of God, and I'm proud of that. Please don't try to mock me or have something against me because I'm religious in this way. I love anime as well.
     
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  13. ~ Zack ~

    ~ Zack ~ Guest

    Perhaps you're just extremely anal-retentive (figuratively speaking) to get so worked up about a TELEVISION SHOW, as if people see this and are going to run around, drawing pentagrams everywhere, writing 666, preaching about "The Beast" and saying "Lucifer is great". Please. If you don't like it, don't watch it and stop ruining it for everyone else.
     
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  14. Vash

    Vash New Member

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    Ooookay.....

    We have a serious difference of opinion here, luvweaver. You see to me it is offensively trivialising of the suffering of the Jewish people to compare the real-life monster that was Hitler to your imaginary boogey man. I am not religious. I believe in God, but I don't have much patience with human beings who have the gall to tell me that they know His (Her? Its? I don't have the presumption to even guess) mind.

    Organised religion is a menace. September 11, far from making me all excited about the ongoing activities of Satan on our planet, makes me all the more angry about the harm done by religion. It was Islamic fanatics that caused September 11, not Satan. Not nice, moderate, harmless Moslems (who I'm presuming you don't equate with Satan, or is your Christianity of a similarly extreme and intolerant variety?) but evil, violent, misguided, extremist religious fanatics.

    There, now I've explained myself too.

    And I wish extremists would stop trying to get my beloved anime censored so that it suits their delicate palate. Just go watch something else if it offends you.
     
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  15. Wolfwood

    Wolfwood New Member

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    !

    Y'know what? the word Satan dont bother me!!!
    It doesn't bother most people I know who are religious either!!
    In fact the ONLY people who start squawking about in my experience are attention seekers.
    Find a real problem to get up in arms about.
    Indidently.....

    Im revolted that you would use the genuine tragety that was September 11 as a way to prove your ridiculous petty, point.
    Satan had nothing to do with it.

    Prehaps your calling doesn't lie in anime fandom.
     
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  16. Mordeth

    Mordeth Mordeth Vult!

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    hrm.... no actually I don't.
    and neither should you, if you are as *christian* as you say you are. the "christian way" of dealing with others is forgiveness isn't it? hate is wrong in your religion, whatever way you try to disguise it, forgiveness, love, understanding and compassion are what christianity is supposed to be about, and is paradoxically what it seems to be missing the most..

    more of that wonderful christian understanding? :p . not everyone is christian here luv, you have to accept the fact that you may be wrong in your beliefs... most *sane* people do, and through that we can grow closer together and understand each other. I'm trying not to be picky here, but the christian religion is led by men, not by god. the pope, the priests, whatever.. you are taking it for granted that they are right and that they are your god's spokesmen on earth... what if they are not?

    and remember, history is written by the victor... what if god didn' tell us everything in the bible? propoganda? :) another ww2 reference, but if Hitler had won the war, don't you think we would be reading about the evil US and those monstrous jews who butchered babies and murdered one another irregardless?

    nope, you don't.
    sorry
    :D
     
    #36
  17. luvweaver

    luvweaver Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    OK. I think there's some chaos in this thread. So i'll have to split my letter in 2 parts:

    1) About myself / my religion-philosophy
    2) The topic. The name of "satan" used in anime (specially DBZ).

    PART I - defense of myself / my religion / christianity.

    ===========================================

    i NEVER said that you should become of my religion or anything. I just stated my opinion regarding why this character was named "Satan". If you don't believe in satan, well that's YOUR problem. But don't criticize me for sharing my opinion about a topic that YOU GUYS opened. If you just wanted people who agree with you to share their opinions, then i wonder why this forum was opened in the first place.

    I don't consider ethical either to misjudge my opinions because of what "organized religions" have done. Also state that antireligious guys (Hitler, Stalin) have done as much harm as religious fanatics, so Vash's point about organized religion vs "my imaginary boogey man" is not valid. A last point - i do believe evil done by organized religions was also caused by Satan - so obviously you have a very incomplete and flawed (not to say biased) concept of satan.

    2) Forgiveness is OK, but one thing is being forgiving and a very different thing is having to shut my mouth when I see something wrong. I express my opinions, but I don't insult people who don't agree with me. (If i have insulted you guys, show me the quotes and i'll rephrase and/or apologize)

    3) What does the "bible complot" has to do with this? Adds nothing to the argument. Now if you would like to talk about conspiracy theories and the evil of organized religions, I invite you to a religion channel where we can debate in a more openly and organized way. So don't add more straw to the fire, please. You're talking about being open, forgiving and the first you do is insulting the bible by saying (or implying) it was written by the victors. How do we know it wasn't written that way? Well, you can take a course of "history of the bible" or "the bible as literature" for example. Yes, there are such courses - if you didn't know about them, well. Don't blame it on us OK?

    For wolfwood: You say some religious people you know don't bother about the name "satan". Well, there are many definitions of "religious". If you're using those "religious" persons to say i'm wrong, then the subject is not the name "satan" used in anime, but my person. (Ever heard the term "ad hominem"? It means attacking the person instead of rebating his arguments)

    Vash: You say organized religion is evil (or did you say "menace"?). Well - it's SO EASY to blame evil upon organized religion, but remember there were so many criminals who didn't believe in God. Of course, atheism can't be blamed for them, because they're not organized. How convenient!

    Saying all organized religious are a menace assumes that their teachings are wrong. And that, if we assume that evil preachers are true representatives of "organized religions". One thing is the doctrine, and a very different thing is the morals of the people who claim to follow this "doctrine". A more correct statement would be "religions which allow evil in the name of good are a menace". And then again, this would have to be present in the religions' DOCTRINE (set of beliefs), not in the leaders' morals which might go against the doctrine.

    Oh - did I mention that there was a joint document of christians, jews and moslems condemning evil done "in the name of God"? No, you don't know about that, do you.

    OK, now that i've clarified the attacks upon organised religion / christianity / myself, let's get back to the point:

    ==========================================
    PART II.

    You classify censors as "evil" versus your "beloved anime", but then answer me why the author of DBZ chose the name "Satan". You haven't answered that yet. If he intended his show to be transmitted to a christian-based culture, then he obviously made a mistake.

    Now Don't get me wrong. I'm _NOT_ saying he's satanic (i would rather say that satan is using him), but what I saw in that episode cannot definitely be chosen as "christian", or "respectful towards crisitianity". If the author knew this name would cause polemic (and I believe he did), then don't go blame christianity for not being "open and forgiving" to something that the author did.

    There are concepts of satan that have nothing to do with this - an example is the typical horned creature with tail and bat-like wings. If you think I believe in this concept, then you're obviously wrong.

    But my concept of satan is completely different: I belive that Satan is the author of ALL evil in the world (including evil done by organized religions). Allow me to clarify: My concept of satan is a fallen angel, immaterial being, who enjoys making people suffer, and causing evil. And this evil is done thru temptations (i.e. capital sins), or direct attacks to the persons' psyche. By saying satan is author of all evil i'm _NOT_ saying that people are free of guilt.

    So it IS offensive for me to see a show where satan's name is praised (even if it's done only ONCE). For me, satan's name being praised is a praise to all the evils in the world. Yes, including religious intolerance.

    Now - what motivated me to write the first post in this thread was that you classified ALL the people who got offended by this as a bunch of zealots who go bible-thumping over those who don't agree with them. I would't have cared much about this thread, but your stereotypical classification of christians did insult me. And I also wanted to share the reason why the name of Satan shouldn't be used in a show for children. That of course, without mentioning the tremendous quantity of violence and the lack of morality in this show. But well, that's another topic.

    Thank you for reading.
     
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  18. ~ Zack ~

    ~ Zack ~ Guest

    Honestly, I never realized Japan was a Christian based culture. At the time probably not even a tenth of the population was Christian, closer to a single percent, though the religion is known in the area, Christmas is a known holiday, but Christianity is far from a "religion" in Japan. From what I've been told, most of them were Zen Buddhists. Akira Toriyama probably knew very little English the time he created the character, probably what he was taught in High School, so you're condemning people who are of a different religion and had their work presented the mass of the same religion who would not have found it controversial and offensive. It's rather immature and stubborn of you to say that he had malicious intents with naming his character after the Prince of Darkness. More than likely he chose the name for the sound of it, not because he idolized the Beast. You're just making yourself look like a little immature and attention-crazed kindergartener who's crying out for attention because you don't like the way something is and you don't have the power to change it, so you choose to whine about it instead and condemn others who are apathetic on the situation. Even if he knew about it, if you payed any attention instead of whining the whole time, Mister Satan could be considered a crack or insult upon Lucifer, seeing as he's only praised by people who have been blinded from the truth. And you say Akira Toriyama's a bad guy.
     
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  19. luvweaver

    luvweaver Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    When I wrote "christian based culture" i meant America.

    So you give me the reason - If DBZ wasn't meant for americans, then americans dubbers have ALL the rights to change the names of the characters they find offensive.
     
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  20. ~ Zack ~

    ~ Zack ~ Guest

    I don't really think Japanese people make animes released in Japan with the intentions of it solely being released in America. And you were the one jumping down the throats of people of a different religion for naming a character after a religious figure they had minimal knowledge of and about. For all we know, Akira Toriyama probably didn't have intentions of DragonBall Z being released in America, accompanied at least with such a controversy from short-fused people over a cartoon character. And as anime fans, we have all the right to want the original content and medium to be released instead of tampered material. You attacked us with our opinions and preferences of wanting a more original medium. And more off, you have very little right to tell people that they aren't a true Christian or they should be pitied or woed because they aren't as easily offended as you are. Do us all a favor, grow up, and move on.
     
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