Speaking of string sounds...

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A while back I asked if anyone had any experience with the current "High
Performance" CD of Snowflakes Are Dancing. Didn't get an answer, so I went
ahead and blew 10 bucks on it... and I chose that verb carefully.

Sweet mother of peal, I thought a person had to have ears to be a Remastering
Engineer at a Big Record Company. I put this thing on, and dogs 3 blocks away
covered their ears and howled. What once were brilliant string sounds are now
screeches the likes of which I haven't heard since my dentist upgraded his
drill. This is the digital future?


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I'll comment on this one ----
I have some experience in this field / area, being a Professional Audio
Engineer (3 Recording Studios, Bachelor's Degree in SRT). I am mastering
some live sound works right now (live unheard Stevie Ray Vaughn, Eric
Clapton performances) What happens is you get some record company who wants
to ship the CD before it's even done being recorded, so they only allow the
engineer a certain amount of time to work on the stuff.. They pressure the
Engineers, and end up hiring unqualified engineers who are less than
professional. Anyone with a noisy hideous soundblaster card and a really bad
set of speakers instantly becomes a professional / expert overnight. Also
the person may not have had a good set of monitoring loudspeakers, they
could be set up wrong - placement, polarity / phasing, standing waves /
acoustic dampening issues of the room. Also someone may not have even
listened to the recording and used a generic plug-in setting without fine
tuning it for each song, or type of music.But most of all and to agree with
your point - Listen to the Damn thing before you ship it!

----- Original Message -----
From: <KimbaWLion at aol.com>
To: <tomita at listbot.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Speaking of string sounds...


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>
> A while back I asked if anyone had any experience with the current "High
> Performance" CD of Snowflakes Are Dancing. Didn't get an answer, so I went
> ahead and blew 10 bucks on it... and I chose that verb carefully.
>
> Sweet mother of peal, I thought a person had to have ears to be a
Remastering
> Engineer at a Big Record Company. I put this thing on, and dogs 3 blocks
away
> covered their ears and howled. What once were brilliant string sounds are
now
> screeches the likes of which I haven't heard since my dentist upgraded his
> drill. This is the digital future?
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to tomita-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>


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> > A while back I asked if anyone had any experience with the current "High
> > Performance" CD of Snowflakes Are Dancing. Didn't get an answer, so I went
> > ahead and blew 10 bucks on it... and I chose that verb carefully.
> >
> > Sweet mother of peal, I thought a person had to have ears to be a
> Remastering
> > Engineer at a Big Record Company. I put this thing on, and dogs 3 blocks
> away
> > covered their ears and howled. What once were brilliant string sounds are
> now
> > screeches the likes of which I haven't heard since my dentist upgraded his
> > drill. This is the digital future?
> >



>
> I'll comment on this one ----
> I have some experience in this field / area, being a Professional Audio
> Engineer (3 Recording Studios, Bachelor's Degree in SRT). I am mastering
> some live sound works right now (live unheard Stevie Ray Vaughn, Eric
> Clapton performances) What happens is you get some record company who wants
> to ship the CD before it's even done being recorded, so they only allow the
> engineer a certain amount of time to work on the stuff.. They pressure the
> Engineers, and end up hiring unqualified engineers who are less than
> professional. Anyone with a noisy hideous soundblaster card and a really bad
> set of speakers instantly becomes a professional / expert overnight. Also
> the person may not have had a good set of monitoring loudspeakers, they
> could be set up wrong - placement, polarity / phasing, standing waves /
> acoustic dampening issues of the room. Also someone may not have even
> listened to the recording and used a generic plug-in setting without fine
> tuning it for each song, or type of music.But most of all and to agree with
> your point - Listen to the Damn thing before you ship it!


Ummm what andy is saying is all good advice but it has nothing to do
with Tomita's 1974 masterpiece.

Firstly KimbaWLion shouldn't complain that the list didn't mention it,
we did before you joined, maybe John has the archives hidden somewhere
on his site?

Its true that he was pushing his 1974 technology way far and had less
experience in general than other artists doing synth music back in the
60s, though obviously he had more than many since he was doing science
fiction soundtracks with lots of studio tricks before his synth albums.

Some things we know about the new remaster.

1. No one let Tomita himself hear it before they re-released it. I
suspect they did use the original masters though as he signed with RCA
in New York not in Japan.

2. Its clear that wat they are doing is mastering in 24/96 so they can
stockpile for whatever format replaces the CD for hi-fi

3. What bothered me on first hearing is that whats pretty much in the
realm of chamber music has a huged processed dynamic range far wider
than the music needs, every time I play it I'm always scrambling to turn
down the volume on several points.

4. They are using a high end Sonic Solutions system which is a standard
for serious mastering, so the soundblaster analogy only holds in that
sometimes mastering people are having a mindset to quash every last bit
of noise and EQ everything bright disregarding any sensitivity toward
the material. With the increased dynamic range that seems to have been
added thats a ticket to harshness since there was bound to be some
digital gain on top of EQ involved. On the other hand the other CD
masterings I've heard were messed up in different ways, most notably bad
distortion and hiss. Come to think of it maybe they are running
algorithms that redraw the peaks on distorted sections? That would lead
to no "classic" type clipping but a different artificial quality from interpolation.

Anyone have a mid/late 90s pressing of "Claire de Lune" (Japanese
version) maybe that is the definitive mastering? Has anyone tracked how
many masterings were used in Japan?

nick

http://welcome.to/synths


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In a message dated 3/28/2001 2:16:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, IXQY writes:

> That's hilarious!!! : )

Thanks. I have to admit I enjoy writing reviews like that just a little
too much, although the opinions behind it were very real.

>I feel the same way about the Pictures at an
> Exhibition on CD that I bought and to a lesser extent Planets and Firebird.
I
> seem to remember the albums sounding MUCH better.

Were those the Dolby Surround (silver cover) versions? I thought that
Pictures was a disaster, too. Planets and Firebird were listenable. I figured
I had made a mistake when I saw the Dolby Surround logo on the HP CD (I got
it by mail order) just from bad experiences.

In a message dated 3/28/2001 2:45:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
andy_despres at hotmail.com writes:

> Anyone with a noisy hideous soundblaster card and a really bad
> set of speakers instantly becomes a professional / expert overnight.

I know what you're saying, but I would expect better from... ah, I guess I'm
just living in the past.

> Also the person may not have had a good set of monitoring loudspeakers

I left that line out: Someone buy that engineer some tweeters!

> Also someone may not have even
> listened to the recording and used a generic plug-in setting without fine
> tuning it for each song, or type of music.

I know what that's like, too. I just don't want to think that RCA/BMG, with
their catalog of recordings to remaster, has sunk to the level of (some
cheapo Italian label I can't remember the name of at the moment).

In a message dated 3/28/2001 4:27:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ndkent at optonline.net writes:

> Firstly KimbaWLion shouldn't complain that the list didn't mention it,
> we did before you joined, maybe John has the archives hidden somewhere
> on his site?

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining about the list; it was
just supposed to be a flat statement that I didn't know any better before
buying it. I admit I didn't look through the old messages on the listbot site.

> Its true that he was pushing his 1974 technology way far and had less
> experience in general than other artists doing synth music back in the
> 60s, though obviously he had more than many since he was doing science
> fiction soundtracks with lots of studio tricks before his synth albums.

I don't understand your point here. I played both the original US LP and the
first US CD release to make sure my memory hadn't gone all wonky. The HP CD
sounds very amateurish by comparison; certainly worse than the 1974 release.

> 1. No one let Tomita himself hear it before they re-released it. I
> suspect they did use the original masters though as he signed with RCA
> in New York not in Japan.

The question isn't what they used so much as what they did with it. The CD is
a mess.

> 2. Its clear that wat they are doing is mastering in 24/96 so they can
> stockpile for whatever format replaces the CD for hi-fi

And foisting their first steps on the learning curve off on the public,
apparently.

> 3. What bothered me on first hearing is that whats pretty much in the
> realm of chamber music has a huged processed dynamic range far wider
> than the music needs

Far wider than was in the original recording, as evidenced by the pumping of
the tape hiss. Whatever they used, they managed to ruin the original dynamics
while creating the harshness and noisiness of compression, and simulating the
sound of a gating filter. Triple threat.

> sometimes mastering people are having a mindset to quash every last bit
> of noise and EQ everything bright disregarding any sensitivity toward
> the material.

The EQ comment was certainly true. It was almost amusing to watch the change
in frequency balance on my equalizer's display as I switched between the new
release and the LP. (And, no, I don't A/B every remaster I buy. Only the ones
that make me say, 'What the hell did they do?'--and the rare one that makes
me say, "Wow, that sounds great!')

> Come to think of it maybe they are running
> algorithms that redraw the peaks on distorted sections?

Not from what my ears told me. The distorted parts seemed unchanged.


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> > Its true that he was pushing his 1974 technology way far and had less
> > experience in general than other artists doing synth music back in the
> > 60s, though obviously he had more than many since he was doing science
> > fiction soundtracks with lots of studio tricks before his synth albums.
>
> I don't understand your point here. I played both the original US LP and the
> first US CD release to make sure my memory hadn't gone all wonky. The HP CD
> sounds very amateurish by comparison; certainly worse than the 1974 release.

The point is the master is clearly more flawed in comparison to other
peoples multitracked masterpieces from the period.

And I was addressing a prior point that made no sense about his being
rushed to turn something in and the mastering wound up suffering. My
point was that point had no bearing on the situation. BTW He had no
contract then so there certainly was no deadline. Also the album there
is documentation he had a deadline on and had to rush to finish was
"Dawn Chorus"

The first US CD has a lot of distortion and a a high tape noise level
also poor A to D. I'm pinning the new one not to ineptitude but to
insensitivity to the material, I mean you can hear them addressing the
hiss and distortion, only they were over eager, and needlessly expanding
the dynamic range highlights the aggressive approach


> > 1. No one let Tomita himself hear it before they re-released it. I
> > suspect they did use the original masters though as he signed with RCA
> > in New York not in Japan.
>
> The question isn't what they used so much as what they did with it. The CD is
> a mess.

Now you are not making sense. The point above is they didn't ask the
artist if it sounded right or not.

My second sentance was just informative, there have been cases like the
infamous Japanese Beatles Abbey Road mastering, and the U.S. pressing of
the Vangelis/Irene Pappas album "Odes" where someone mastered from
multiply duped analog masters not suitable for a CD. I'm kind of ruling
that out.

Something I didn't mention is that masters have been known to go bad.
Like Wendy Carlos is stuggling to get something playable today out of Tron.

Saying its a mess and leaving it at that with nothing further isn't
making much of a statement other than stating an opinion

>
> > 2. Its clear that wat they are doing is mastering in 24/96 so they can
> > stockpile for whatever format replaces the CD for hi-fi
>
> And foisting their first steps on the learning curve off on the public,
> apparently.
>
> > 3. What bothered me on first hearing is that whats pretty much in the
> > realm of chamber music has a huged processed dynamic range far wider
> > than the music needs
>
> Far wider than was in the original recording, as evidenced by the pumping of
> the tape hiss. Whatever they used, they managed to ruin the original dynamics
> while creating the harshness and noisiness of compression, and simulating the
> sound of a gating filter. Triple threat.

Yes though I think your cause and effect analysis makes no sense
orderwise. By the way there generally is marketing pressure with new
technology to make sure classical recordings have a huge dynamic range
and frequency response, but we agree its uncalled for.

> > sometimes mastering people are having a mindset to quash every last bit
> > of noise and EQ everything bright disregarding any sensitivity toward
> > the material.
>
> The EQ comment was certainly true. It was almost amusing to watch the change
> in frequency balance on my equalizer's display as I switched between the new
> release and the LP. (And, no, I don't A/B every remaster I buy. Only the ones
> that make me say, 'What the hell did they do?'--and the rare one that makes
> me say, "Wow, that sounds great!')

true, but also a legitimate predicament is stuff is mastered for vinyl
rather than high fi, mastering engineers sometimes attempt to
re-compensate for CD but the results of course vary

>
> > Come to think of it maybe they are running
> > algorithms that redraw the peaks on distorted sections?
>
> Not from what my ears told me. The distorted parts seemed unchanged.

To me the distortion's character has changed a lot, maybe you are just
thinking of the worst of it and I'm thinking everything thats slightly
distorted. To me it doesn't sound right but it no longer sounds like
plain old distortion in most parts.

I haven't played that half speed audiophile LP in years, maybe I should.
I don't remember the regular LP sounding very high-fi.

nick kent


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In a message dated 3/29/2001 2:31:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ndkent at optonline.net writes:

> Now you are not making sense. The point above is they didn't ask the
> artist if it sounded right or not.

I think I'm merely approaching this at a more visceral level. My feeling is
that insensitivity to the material, less-than-perfect master, bad monitoring
setup, whatever you might blame, the end result boils down to ineptitude,
regardless of whether they achieved their goal of an insane dynamic range
and/or piercing my ears from the inside. For all I know, this was ripped out
of the engineer's hands too soon and he hates it, in which case the
ineptitude was on the part of the marketing department. Not consulting with
the artist when they are ostensibly launching a big new remaster series is
incredibly stupid.

The main reason I complained was a feeling of sorrow that each re-release is
worse than the last one. This is the only form in which this album is
available now. (Newbies aren't likely to search for used LPs.)

"It's too piercing, man! Too piercing!"--Peter Leeds (as the bongo player)


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> In a message dated 3/29/2001 2:31:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> ndkent at optonline.net writes:
>
> > Now you are not making sense. The point above is they didn't ask the
> > artist if it sounded right or not.
>
> I think I'm merely approaching this at a more visceral level. My feeling is
> that insensitivity to the material, less-than-perfect master,

Well we know the master is fairly bad from all the bad masterings,
compared to the others where the CDs aren't bad.

bad monitoring
> setup, whatever you might blame,

I don't think so , but anyway the sonic range is quite different from
say an orchestra and they clearly had an unclear idea on what it was
supposed to sound like


the end result boils down to ineptitude,
> regardless of whether they achieved their goal of an insane dynamic range
> and/or piercing my ears from the inside.

When I felt my ears pierced it was because I had the volume cranked up
to hear the quiet parts then in comes some loud stuff.

For all I know, this was ripped out
> of the engineer's hands too soon and he hates it, in which case the
> ineptitude was on the part of the marketing department. Not consulting with
> the artist when they are ostensibly launching a big new remaster series is
> incredibly stupid.

Well ordinarily when you have an orchestra most artists just leave the
recording up to the company, some don't of course... but this isn't a
recording BMG made of an orchestra.

Now another theory is this recording might be some botched automatic 5.1
truncation. The whole idea I presume was to prepare some 5.1 24/96
material from their back catalog and the CD we have now is just an
opportune release to pay for that work

They probably didn't get him involved due to greed of some sort. Usually
the low priced reissues means they greatly reduce any royalties to
almost nothing but they don't want to say that.


>
> The main reason I complained was a feeling of sorrow that each re-release is
> worse than the last one.

no, its hit and miss and depends what you are looking to hear, I would
say this album has the most problems of the classical ones.

nick

http://welcome.to/synths


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In a message dated 3/29/2001 11:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ndkent at optonline.net writes:

> Well we know the master is fairly bad from all the bad masterings,

Would you call the original LP a bad mastering, too? My feeling is that if
they would produce a CD that sounded at least as good as my LP, I'd be happy.
But they haven't. Since the CDs fall short of the original LP, I don't
consider the problem to be a bad original master tape. I am not making
allowances for the possibility of deterioration, because the problems that I
hear do not sound like deterioration of the master.

You could argue, I suppose, that since I'm using the LP as my reference that
I don't really know what this is supposed to sound like. Again, it's a
visceral reaction: each CD release is less pleasant to listen to than the
preceding one.

> compared to the others where the CDs aren't bad.

Of the Dolby Surround releases, I found Snowflakes quite harsh (don't have a
copy any more to refresh my memory), Planets harsher than LP but not terribly
so, and Pictures a disaster because bits of it disappeared in the mix. (I
don't remember how Kosmos stacked up; it's not one of my favorites.)

> Now another theory is this recording might be some botched automatic 5.1
> truncation.

Too many unknowns for me to speculate on that, although it does sound like a
lot of the mastering was left to autopilot. Considering how long Dolby
Surround has been around, I wouldn't expect the conversion process to be that
much of a black art. But that's me.

> > The main reason I complained was a feeling of sorrow that each
re-release is
> > worse than the last one.
>
> no, its hit and miss and depends what you are looking to hear

Just to clarify: Basically, I'm pretty happy with the way the original LPs
sounded in terms of overall sound balance and overlooking problems relating
to the manufacture of LPs (surface noise, off-center pressings, etc.). I'm
familiar with the original CD re-releases of Snowflakes, Planets, and
Pictures, the Dolby Surround series, and now this HP CD of Snowflakes. My
feeling is there has been a continuous movement away from enjoyable sound
with each new reissue. If you find it more of a hit-and-miss situation, I'm
interested to know which CDs you consider successful.


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> In a message dated 3/29/2001 11:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> ndkent at optonline.net writes:
>
> > Well we know the master is fairly bad from all the bad masterings,
>
> Would you call the original LP a bad mastering, too? My feeling is that if
> they would produce a CD that sounded at least as good as my LP, I'd be happy.

mine was bought new and fairly badly pressed, bad enough that I bought
the audiophile one. Now that one deserves a revisit.

As for CDs I had the original 80s U.S. version and I did A/B them and I
liked the "High Performance" one better dispite some misgivings. (I gave
the older one to my Dad)

> But they haven't. Since the CDs fall short of the original LP, I don't
> consider the problem to be a bad original master tape.

I am not making
> allowances for the possibility of deterioration, because the problems that I
> hear do not sound like deterioration of the master.

I wasn't trying to say that thats what you were hearing but I'm saying
that because they are compensating for a now deteriorated analog master
takes them down the path of messing it up.


> You could argue, I suppose, that since I'm using the LP as my reference that
> I don't really know what this is supposed to sound like. Again, it's a
> visceral reaction: each CD release is less pleasant to listen to than the
> preceding one.
>
> > compared to the others where the CDs aren't bad.
>
> Of the Dolby Surround releases, I found Snowflakes quite harsh (don't have a
> copy any more to refresh my memory), Planets harsher than LP but not terribly
> so,

my LP of that was mediocre, I myself have no problems with "the Planets"


> > Now another theory is this recording might be some botched automatic 5.1
> > truncation.
>
> Too many unknowns for me to speculate on that, although it does sound like a
> lot of the mastering was left to autopilot. Considering how long Dolby
> Surround has been around, I wouldn't expect the conversion process to be that
> much of a black art. But that's me.

Well its no secret that all classical recordings are done in 24/96 now
and most in 5.1. Its totally clear that the point of doing this remaster
was not to remaster it for the sake of doing so but as something they
can release now and sell again in 24/96 5.1


>
> > > The main reason I complained was a feeling of sorrow that each
> re-release is
> > > worse than the last one.
> >
> > no, its hit and miss and depends what you are looking to hear
>
> Just to clarify: Basically, I'm pretty happy with the way the original LPs
> sounded in terms of overall sound balance and overlooking problems relating
> to the manufacture of LPs (surface noise, off-center pressings, etc.). I'm
> familiar with the original CD re-releases of Snowflakes, Planets, and
> Pictures, the Dolby Surround series, and now this HP CD of Snowflakes. My
> feeling is there has been a continuous movement away from enjoyable sound
> with each new reissue. If you find it more of a hit-and-miss situation, I'm
> interested to know which CDs you consider successful.

Yes we should find out more about the Japanese CDs. All my CDs that
weren't in the Silver Surround series (or the live pair) I've bought in
the last couple years in Japan. None of them I'd call bad though some
don't jump out as superb either.

Anyway, just for the record, though slightly off topic, Tomita is very
unhappy with the live "Genji", my understanding was he wasn't expecting
it to be released but Pioneer had the rights and did.

nick


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----- Original Message -----
From: N. Kent <ndkent at optonline.net>
To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of string sounds...


> Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/
>
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>
>
> > In a message dated 3/29/2001 11:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > ndkent at optonline.net writes:
> >
> > > Well we know the master is fairly bad from all the bad masterings,
> >
> > Would you call the original LP a bad mastering, too? My feeling is that
if
> > they would produce a CD that sounded at least as good as my LP, I'd be
happy.
>
> mine was bought new and fairly badly pressed, bad enough that I bought
> the audiophile one. Now that one deserves a revisit.
>
> As for CDs I had the original 80s U.S. version and I did A/B them and I
> liked the "High Performance" one better dispite some misgivings. (I gave
> the older one to my Dad)
>
> > But they haven't. Since the CDs fall short of the original LP, I don't
> > consider the problem to be a bad original master tape.
>
> I am not making
> > allowances for the possibility of deterioration, because the problems
that I
> > hear do not sound like deterioration of the master.
>
> I wasn't trying to say that thats what you were hearing but I'm saying
> that because they are compensating for a now deteriorated analog master
> takes them down the path of messing it up.
>
This is true, if the analog tapes have been stored too long, they get what's
known as shedding or flaking. You then Have to Bake the master tapes in a
convection oven at 120 degrees (I think) for about an hour (I think) and if
they didn't do this then the oxide could flake off, and cause many side
effects to occur - the first to go is the high end quality. It starts to
sound "shrill". As well some of the Magnetic info can leak onto the other
parts of the tape (I forget what this is called, bleeding?) so you will hear
some information delayed slightly, maybe even enough to cause some phase
cancellation. Also, over time that bass drum track could bleed onto a
synthesizer track, not from tape calibration / tracking errors, but from
sitting too long. Also as a general rule, reel to reel's should be stored
Tails Out. Meaning Fast Forwarded all the way. Why is this? You might be
able to see some of the flaking on the tape and catch it before it's too
late! Also you will have a chance to know the quality of the tape before it
touches the heads and causes you to have to re-lap (resurface) the heads of
that $150,000 Studer-Revox 24 Track 2" Reel-to-Reel. So all things aside,
there is a lot involved with that process even before the tape is played.
Ever Watch a movie on TV or Video that you remember being really clear
picture, and now it looks terrible? This is why! VideoTape also degrades,as
does film (Super 8, 26, 35mm etc.) Leaving Test Tones at the beginning and
plenty of blank tape at the end has also saved many a master from total
loss. Too Bad what happened to W. Carlos with Tron. What a tragedy. I would
have loved to hear that in 5.1 DTS.
Did they say they were using a Sonic Solutions No-Noise NR system system
specifically? Or just edited on a Sonic System? There are many other
products they could use. If you want a good copy, you can always master it
yourself using Steinberg Wavelab, with some plug-ins like Denoiser and
Declicker, loudness maximizer, some EQ plugins are nice.
>
> > You could argue, I suppose, that since I'm using the LP as my reference
that
> > I don't really know what this is supposed to sound like. Again, it's a
> > visceral reaction: each CD release is less pleasant to listen to than
the
> > preceding one.
> >
> > > compared to the others where the CDs aren't bad.
> >
> > Of the Dolby Surround releases, I found Snowflakes quite harsh (don't
have a
> > copy any more to refresh my memory), Planets harsher than LP but not
terribly
> > so,
>
> my LP of that was mediocre, I myself have no problems with "the Planets"
>
>
> > > Now another theory is this recording might be some botched automatic
5.1
> > > truncation.
> >
> > Too many unknowns for me to speculate on that, although it does sound
like a
> > lot of the mastering was left to autopilot. Considering how long Dolby
> > Surround has been around, I wouldn't expect the conversion process to be
that
> > much of a black art. But that's me.
>
> Well its no secret that all classical recordings are done in 24/96 now
> and most in 5.1. Its totally clear that the point of doing this remaster
> was not to remaster it for the sake of doing so but as something they
> can release now and sell again in 24/96 5.1
>
>
> >
> > > > The main reason I complained was a feeling of sorrow that each
> > re-release is
> > > > worse than the last one.
> > >
> > > no, its hit and miss and depends what you are looking to hear
> >
> > Just to clarify: Basically, I'm pretty happy with the way the original
LPs
> > sounded in terms of overall sound balance and overlooking problems
relating
> > to the manufacture of LPs (surface noise, off-center pressings, etc.).
I'm
> > familiar with the original CD re-releases of Snowflakes, Planets, and
> > Pictures, the Dolby Surround series, and now this HP CD of Snowflakes.
My
> > feeling is there has been a continuous movement away from enjoyable
sound
> > with each new reissue. If you find it more of a hit-and-miss situation,
I'm
> > interested to know which CDs you consider successful.
>
> Yes we should find out more about the Japanese CDs. All my CDs that
> weren't in the Silver Surround series (or the live pair) I've bought in
> the last couple years in Japan. None of them I'd call bad though some
> don't jump out as superb either.
>
> Anyway, just for the record, though slightly off topic, Tomita is very
> unhappy with the live "Genji", my understanding was he wasn't expecting
> it to be released but Pioneer had the rights and did.
>
> nick
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to tomita-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>


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In a message dated 3/29/2001 1:43:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
andy_despres at hotmail.com writes:

> This is true, if the analog tapes have been stored too long, they get what's
> known as shedding or flaking...the first to go is the high end quality. It
starts to
> sound "shrill".

Since the high frequencies are closer to the surface (i.e. they don't
penetrate as far into the tape as the lows), flaking of the oxide will result
in a dull sound. This will be made even worse as the loose oxide clogs up the
playback head. Now, overcompensating for lost highs will indeed result in
shrillness.

As well some of the Magnetic info can leak onto the other
> parts of the tape (I forget what this is called, bleeding?)

Print through.

> so you will hear
> some information delayed slightly, maybe even enough to cause some phase
> cancellation.

The echo (and pre-echo if the sound should affect an earlier part of the
recording) will be delayed by the time it takes for the tape reel to make one
revolution, which is far too long for phase errors.

> Also as a general rule, reel to reel's should be stored
> Tails Out. Meaning Fast Forwarded all the way.

A tape stored tails out in a played condition will generally have a more even
wind to the the tape pack, and thus be less susceptible to warping. I've also
heard it said that a played tape will have less air between the layers to
interact with the binders, but IMO if your tape wind is so loose you get air
between the layers, warping will be your major problem.

> If you want a good copy, you can always master it
> yourself using Steinberg Wavelab, with some plug-ins like Denoiser and
> Declicker, loudness maximizer, some EQ plugins are nice.

I did just transfer a favorite LP to CD, and had a great deal of fun with my
various tools--including manually removing a couple of instances of really
bad pre-echo that were in the tape used to master the LP. But I don't have
the time to spend hours on each LP, and besides, making my own CDs wouldn't
address my desire to see Tomita's music made available to newcomers in the
best possible form


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Ok I wasn't sure what the deal was (It's been a few years since I have
looked over my class notes, time to look them over again I guess) What I
belive I meant to say is that when the high frequencies are gone (meaning
the first to be destroyed) there is too much bass, but then the midrange
(About 1K or so...) also appears to "stick out" too much, as the Eq curve of
the tape changes, so you are correct when the compensation is made on the
higher frequencies it would sound terrible. Can't play what's not on the
tape anymore! Ahhh -- Print Through!!! I need to talk to Dave Moulton
again. (Author of Golden Ears, also one of my teachers, who intoduced me to
W. Carlos, etc. in sound synth 1 , Acoustics, and recording 1). And yes the
darn oxide shreds do clog the heads up!! Depending on the section size of
the reel (beginning or end) and the IPS it was recorded at (3.5, 7.5,15, 30)
you might get some weird crap occuring, you are probably correct in saying
it is not phase cancellation, or comb filtering, but regardless, it's still
annoying. You are absolutely correct also about PLAYING the tape through to
the end. I stand corrected, fast forwarding isn't enough because the tape
packing / tension is too loose or uneven. So that's absolutely true. As a
force of habit in the studio, I always PLAY a tape to the end of the reel,
and I NEVER Fast Forward it. Didn't want to get too technical for the folks
here either, but I guess there are a few Pro's here after all. It's Good to
know someone in this mailing has some idea of the recording process.
Been a while since I used a Reel to Reel, but the studio I work at just
bought one, so I have to brush up again anyway. (Ampex 2" 24 Track. I am
going to sync it with the BRC to the ADAT's for 48 channels. Also have the
BRC output MIDI Time Code to the Computer where I can get 24 or 32 more
tracks (in audio hardware) coming out of the computer. In theory, anyway,
tape drift, MTC clock timing etc. may defeat me on this one, but we'll see.
So 48 Channels from tape plus 24 or 32 from HDD could get me a possible max
of 80 HW fader channels on mixdown if I don't double up any sound card
tracks in s/w. (Mackie 24+24 expander, and 2 Korg 16 Channel Lighpipe
mixers) It's true that making your own Cd's kind of defeats the purpose of
seeing tomita's music made publicly available, but all the Cd's I have
encountered have only been available by ordering online. No retail shops in
my area carry a single CD. Wish they did because I'd buy them, but I am
forced to use napster to hear a single note of Tomita's stuff for the time
being. (it figures). The quality of most of the stuff I have heard sounds
terrible because they are recorded badly in MP3 format anyway. Some is ok,
however.

----- Original Message -----
From: <KimbaWLion at aol.com>
To: <tomita at listbot.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of string sounds...


> Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Build a marketing database and send targeted HTML and text e-mail
> newsletters
> to your customers with List Builder.
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In a message dated 3/29/2001 1:43:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> andy_despres at hotmail.com writes:
>
> > This is true, if the analog tapes have been stored too long, they get
what's
> > known as shedding or flaking...the first to go is the high end quality.
It
> starts to
> > sound "shrill".
>
> Since the high frequencies are closer to the surface (i.e. they don't
> penetrate as far into the tape as the lows), flaking of the oxide will
result
> in a dull sound. This will be made even worse as the loose oxide clogs up
the
> playback head. Now, overcompensating for lost highs will indeed result in
> shrillness.
>
> As well some of the Magnetic info can leak onto the other
> > parts of the tape (I forget what this is called, bleeding?)
>
> Print through.
>
> > so you will hear
> > some information delayed slightly, maybe even enough to cause some
phase
> > cancellation.
>
> The echo (and pre-echo if the sound should affect an earlier part of the
> recording) will be delayed by the time it takes for the tape reel to make
one
> revolution, which is far too long for phase errors.
>
> > Also as a general rule, reel to reel's should be stored
> > Tails Out. Meaning Fast Forwarded all the way.
>
> A tape stored tails out in a played condition will generally have a more
even
> wind to the the tape pack, and thus be less susceptible to warping. I've
also
> heard it said that a played tape will have less air between the layers to
> interact with the binders, but IMO if your tape wind is so loose you get
air
> between the layers, warping will be your major problem.
>
> > If you want a good copy, you can always master it
> > yourself using Steinberg Wavelab, with some plug-ins like Denoiser and
> > Declicker, loudness maximizer, some EQ plugins are nice.
>
> I did just transfer a favorite LP to CD, and had a great deal of fun with
my
> various tools--including manually removing a couple of instances of really
> bad pre-echo that were in the tape used to master the LP. But I don't have
> the time to spend hours on each LP, and besides, making my own CDs
wouldn't
> address my desire to see Tomita's music made available to newcomers in the
> best possible form
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to tomita-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>


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> effects to occur - the first to go is the high end quality. It starts to
> sound "shrill". As well some of the Magnetic info can leak onto the other
> parts of the tape (I forget what this is called, bleeding?) so you will
hear
> some information delayed slightly, maybe even enough to cause some phase
> cancellation.

I think it's called print through. I noticed this problem on Snowflakes
right from the first LP pressing I bought in 1976. It is evidenced by a dull
"pre-echo" a fraction of a second before (not after) a note, particularly in
quiet passages (sorry I'm not up on techspeak).

--Paul Mundy


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