The Grand Arguement

Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi

I haven't been very vocal on this list but this is a subject that
concerns me a lot:

> Maybe someone should convince Mr Tomita to return to
> synthesizers because I think that he still has much to show
> to younger generations.

>As I mentioned, he's still using them a lot, just not doing projects
>that are all synthesizer at this moment, who knows, maybe something
will
>come his way that will be done with just synths, he certainly still
>loves them.

>Unfortunately the younger generation isn't listening, too much crappy
>techno, now I don't mind if people are influenced and learn from good
>techno, but just noodling with samplers and drum machines is lame if
>shared with others.

>Its funny now. When I hear crap I'm never sure if someone is trying to
>be ironic or they just aren't very good. Thats the contribution of the

>post modern age.

Mr Tomita is/was a very important figure in the development of
Electronic Music, using timbres unequalled elsewhere but that is of
little consequence to any but the devoted. These days music is more
fashion than content. This an accusation that is always levelled -
believe me I have nothing against Pop as it serves a very useful purpose
- to entertain and amuse. But what seems to have occured now is that the
TV generation no longer understand content and only see the novelty, so
new music esp Electronic Music is suffering badly from effect without
cause. The new "artists" are not interested in the roots of their
culture merely aquiring the trimmings and cred of the latest dudes for
themselves. We have a generation that consume to exist rather than
create to be. Everyone suffers from this: the kids because they have
emptiness in everything they do and oldies like me (30yo) who can longer
be understood by a generation who need that novelty hit to feel real.
It's got to the stage that we need a content revolution - something like
Punk/New Wave that is focussed on emotion and feeling in art rather than
packaging. Raise yer fists brothers and sisters...

... and whilst yer at it have a look and listen at my web site : )

Lata
_________________________________
Benedict
Column 3-57
http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict


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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

I totally agree. Tomita is very much liked by the gay community here in
Dallas, Texas. For some reason, the gay community is into very electronic
music, old or not. JOHN


From: Benedict <benedict at theinternet.com.au>
Reply-To: "Isao Tomita Mailing List" <tomita at listbot.com>
To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: The Grand Arguement
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:45:50 +1000

Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi

I haven't been very vocal on this list but this is a subject that
concerns me a lot:

> Maybe someone should convince Mr Tomita to return to
> synthesizers because I think that he still has much to show
> to younger generations.

>As I mentioned, he's still using them a lot, just not doing projects
>that are all synthesizer at this moment, who knows, maybe something
will
>come his way that will be done with just synths, he certainly still
>loves them.

>Unfortunately the younger generation isn't listening, too much crappy
>techno, now I don't mind if people are influenced and learn from good
>techno, but just noodling with samplers and drum machines is lame if
>shared with others.

>Its funny now. When I hear crap I'm never sure if someone is trying to
>be ironic or they just aren't very good. Thats the contribution of the

>post modern age.

Mr Tomita is/was a very important figure in the development of
Electronic Music, using timbres unequalled elsewhere but that is of
little consequence to any but the devoted. These days music is more
fashion than content. This an accusation that is always levelled -
believe me I have nothing against Pop as it serves a very useful purpose
- to entertain and amuse. But what seems to have occured now is that the
TV generation no longer understand content and only see the novelty, so
new music esp Electronic Music is suffering badly from effect without
cause. The new "artists" are not interested in the roots of their
culture merely aquiring the trimmings and cred of the latest dudes for
themselves. We have a generation that consume to exist rather than
create to be. Everyone suffers from this: the kids because they have
emptiness in everything they do and oldies like me (30yo) who can longer
be understood by a generation who need that novelty hit to feel real.
It's got to the stage that we need a content revolution - something like
Punk/New Wave that is focussed on emotion and feeling in art rather than
packaging. Raise yer fists brothers and sisters...

... and whilst yer at it have a look and listen at my web site : )

Lata
_________________________________
Benedict
Column 3-57
http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict


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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi

>I totally agree. Tomita is very much liked by the gay community here
in
>Dallas, Texas. For some reason, the gay community is into very
electronic
>music, old or not. JOHN

Unfortunately the gay community here is no longer quite so open to
things old. They still love electronic music but more Dance than
anything else. I should imagine that Australia and Texas would be a bit
similar. Hot, dusty and not very artistically inclined. Unfortunately
Brisabne is very inward looking and feels that it is the equal of
anywhere in the world. As a result standards here tend to be quite poor
- no striving to meet the world stage. It's hard to get noticed here as
there are no established venues for serious musicians. Classical
musicians shun new styles and the kids don't want to understand anything
that doesn't have a big beat. Oh well - that said I'm starting to get a
little interest in my work.

Lata
_________________________________
Benedict
Column 3-57
http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict


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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/


>fashion than content. This an accusation that is always levelled -
>believe me I have nothing against Pop as it serves a very useful purpose
>- to entertain and amuse. But what seems to have occured now is that the
>TV generation no longer understand content and only see the novelty, so
>new music esp Electronic Music is suffering badly from effect without

That's very true, and sad. And it's about pop music as well. Many great artists
are releasing their works privately, because they are not GOOD LOOKING!
It's really incredible that music is not really important in music industry.
It's a pretty face they are looking for. That's a main reason why I'm doing
film music these days. There you can make complicated and adventurous
music and you are not forced to make your tunes "radio&video friendly".
But of course, it's very rare to get your scores released because of these
"inspired of" collections, which have nothing to do with the films.

Actually, one of the better synthesists came from the folm world: namely
the "Zimmer team". They have done really amazing job and their best
works really are kind of quality synth music of the 90's and beyond...

Also, I think that Mr. Tomita was really the cutting edge artist in the 70's
with all the latest gizmos. Today he may not be anymore. The gear he
uses are not so up to date anymore(he's been using the same board
at least 16 years etc.). But if you look at, for example, Mr. Zimmer's
writing room, you can find there everything...Of course Mr Zimmer is
NOT in the same league of the great classical writers, but he is
better than some other guys.

Still, there are some "old school" artists releasing material through major
labels. Vangelis is quite popular and then there is Mr. Jarre, which I
personally find musically quite bland (actually Jean Michel's father
makes much more modern and adventurous music ;-)

Actually, what I'm saying is: the sounds are not enough!!! We need good
music also. There are many great sound designers today, but they
are not musicians, they are DJ's etc. And that's the main problem,
there just isn't enough music!!

And when I think of it, that is what Tomita is for me: good music (well, it's
classical, after all) AND great innovative sounds.

Tomi


tomi.malm at yle.fi
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Canal/5832/


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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

tomi.malm at yle.fi wrote:
>
> Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/
>
> >fashion than content. This an accusation that is always levelled -
> >believe me I have nothing against Pop as it serves a very useful purpose
> >- to entertain and amuse. But what seems to have occured now is that the
> >TV generation no longer understand content and only see the novelty, so
> >new music esp Electronic Music is suffering badly from effect without
>
> That's very true, and sad. And it's about pop music as well. Many great artists
> are releasing their works privately, because they are not GOOD LOOKING!

not quite true or it would be all models, for example actors tend to
fail on music careers more often than not, but there is a truth in
striving for being fashionable. Lots of people buy music because they
are being fed it and told by someone else its fashionable rather than
seeking out and deciding what kind of music they like themselves


> It's really incredible that music is not really important in music industry.
> It's a pretty face they are looking for. That's a main reason why I'm doing
> film music these days. There you can make complicated and adventurous
> music and you are not forced to make your tunes "radio&video friendly".

But that's not the magic answer, sure, you don't need have a stage
presence or a beautiful face, but most film music that's high profile
isn't all that adventurous, it is instrumental though. It takes a
special relationship between directors and composers, although
admittedly a composer might be able to squeeze something great into a
score if the production is too busy to really pay attention and the
composer does.

Then again we are talking about widely different areas of music here.

Tomita has been doing something for the concert hall this past year, and
that's something completely different also.

> But of course, it's very rare to get your scores released because of these
> "inspired of" collections, which have nothing to do with the films.

Producers want to hoist inappropriate songs by others into a score to
get cross publicity and album sales.

>
> Actually, one of the better synthesists came from the folm world: namely
> the "Zimmer team". They have done really amazing job and their best
> works really are kind of quality synth music of the 90's and beyond...

I mean I respect them and what they do tends to be appropriate but what
are they doing that's so much better than what Tomita has been doing in
the 90s.

> Also, I think that Mr. Tomita was really the cutting edge artist in the 70's
> with all the latest gizmos. Today he may not be anymore.

He gets support from the big manufacturers. "The First Emperor" had very
prominent and innovative use of the Yamaha VL-1, Genji is done in Roland
Sound Space. But of course this has nothing to do with good work. Most
people think, and to some extent Tomita himself thinks that when he
really got current gear with the digital stuff in the 80s, that's when
his work lost some of the qualities it had earlier. Except for the
Microcomposer and some of the early polys Tomita was using gear that
wasn't cutting edge.

His sound was so good because he was willing to put in the hours of work
no one else would and he had the musical sense to judge what he was
doing and the ideas to find tremendous sounds in his instruments.

The gear he
> uses are not so up to date anymore(he's been using the same board
> at least 16 years etc.).

should it matter if it works well

But if you look at, for example, Mr. Zimmer's
> writing room, you can find there everything...Of course Mr Zimmer is
> NOT in the same league of the great classical writers, but he is
> better than some other guys.

Yeah, but what's really innovative in his use of synths? I mean he has
more than almost anyone else. But I'm not hearing anything daring or
different other than his regularly solid work. For example, in "Thin Red
Line" he pointed out that on one cue he recorded a track entirely with
samplers and he thinks no one can spot it. But then again is that really
much of an achievement? Its not like he synthesized the track, he just
used a really good collection of samples with an understanding of
traditional orchestration.

For better or worse he's doing a lot of the same general kind of stuff
Tomita is doing these days, only with big Hollywood studios rather than
the NHK.


And that's the main problem,
> there just isn't enough music!!

Well there always can be more music, but there probably is enough music
out there, maybe more precisely people accept lowest common denominator
music because thats all thats being offered to them conveniantly. Safe
and fashionable stuff. There are also very real factors of people
wanting what they are used to, though you have top then look deeper to
know why they wound up being used to it.

I think thats one of the main things wrong with modern ROM wave based
synthesizers and plain old library use of samplers. Aside from issues of
expression I won't go into here, the main problem is they are
convenient. They make sounds good enough to say, ahh, those are strings
or whatever. So the so called synthesists stop because its convenient
enough and realistic enough. But thats the trap, its like the worst of 2
possible worlds, the real and surreal. The real being acoustic
instruments and the surreal being actual synthesis, not wave playback.
But actual synthesis always takes longer to do, so thats the (in some
ways valid but definitely regrettable) excuse for mediocrity.

nicholas d. kent


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>not quite true or it would be all models, for example actors tend to
>fail on music careers more often than not, but there is a truth in

Well, sometimes I think that many boy/girlband members ARE actually
models, not musicians ;-)


>But that's not the magic answer, sure, you don't need have a stage
>presence or a beautiful face, but most film music that's high profile
>isn't all that adventurous, it is instrumental though. It takes a

It's not an anwer, but it's one way to make better music. well, of course
there are many kinds of film music, I still think that there is some
very interesting composers in film music, for example Elliott Goldenthal
& Thomas Newman

And it's good to remember that Tomita's early works were film music.

>Producers want to hoist inappropriate songs by others into a score to
>get cross publicity and album sales.

Exactly, many directors have complained that they just have to find
a place for several songs in film, even when they doesn't actually fit!
sometimes dramatic score will be replaced by a song.


>> Actually, one of the better synthesists came from the folm world: namely
>> the "Zimmer team". They have done really amazing job and their best
>> works really are kind of quality synth music of the 90's and beyond...
>
>I mean I respect them and what they do tends to be appropriate but what
>are they doing that's so much better than what Tomita has been doing in
>the 90s.

No, it's not better, but it's OK. At first I didn't like Zimmer's work, too
obvious
melodies but now I've softened quite a bit.

>really got current gear with the digital stuff in the 80s, that's when
>his work lost some of the qualities it had earlier. Except for the
>Microcomposer and some of the early polys Tomita was using gear that
>wasn't cutting edge.

well, kinda true. I think his best works are done before 1980. But then
those big systems and digital sequencers and Yamaha polyponic synth
were quite...cutting edge! I had only this poor cs5 back in 1979 ;-)

>His sound was so good because he was willing to put in the hours of work
>no one else would and he had the musical sense to judge what he was

That's a good point. There was so much work and every sound had to be
made from scratch, no memories and presets. Today it's so easy to
call a preset or buy one of those wonderful Spectrasonic etc. cd-rom's and
impress people, fast. But at a same time you loose a bit of your personality.

>> uses are not so up to date anymore(he's been using the same board
>> at least 16 years etc.).
>
>should it matter if it works well

Well, the depends...if the sound quality is OK, then it should matter but
I've found that many 80's board's are not so nice sounding.


>Yeah, but what's really innovative in his use of synths? I mean he has
>more than almost anyone else. But I'm not hearing anything daring or
>different other than his regularly solid work. For example, in "Thin Red
>Line" he pointed out that on one cue he recorded a track entirely with

I think that Zimmer actually has his own sound. Poeple may or may not
like it but his work is easy to recognize. He is not formally trained and
sometimes his melodies are a bit naiive but I think it is also his strenght.
"Thin red line" is actually quite good, minimalistic & mainly acoustic music.


>Well there always can be more music, but there probably is enough music
>out there, maybe more precisely people accept lowest common denominator

Maybe there is too much stuff out there. It's hard to find anything. What
I like is to have some chordral/melodic sophistication(and "qood"
arrangements) in todays "electronic" music, as it is what we are talking here...
Mainly block chords played with great sounds are not enough. And as
that is the only music people are offered today, they can't actually
demand more.

>enough and realistic enough. But thats the trap, its like the worst of 2
>possible worlds, the real and surreal. The real being acoustic
>instruments and the surreal being actual synthesis, not wave playback.

Well, samplers are very good when used creatively, not to imitate acooustic
instruments. Still, I think this there are some very interesting synth
technicues which are narrowing the gap between synthesizers and
samplers.

Tomi


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Unfortunately, all Texas really like is COUNTRY music. It's okay, but you
get sick of it 24 hours a day. It's everywhere on the radio. Also, since I
live in the "Bible Belt" there are a lot of people who are willing to make
you aware of all your sins. It's a very hypocritical state. It has the
highest divorce rate in the nation, yet everyone here goes to church on
Sunday. It is indeed very fake and materialistic. Someday I would love to
visit Australia. The U.S. is very strange regarding sex. They show it on
TV all the time, yet sex is a subject that many people here supposedly are
against when it doesn't involve them. It's kind of like, "Do as I say, not
as I do." Unfortunately, the religious majority here in Texas (Baptist)
don't realize there are other religions in the world. I'm sure you've heard
recently of the Southern Baptists trying to proselatize the Jews. The
Jewish community was not very happy about that! Anyway, have a great day!
JOHN


From: Benedict <benedict at theinternet.com.au>
Reply-To: "Isao Tomita Mailing List" <tomita at listbot.com>
To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: The Grand Arguement
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:36:45 +1000

Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi

>I totally agree. Tomita is very much liked by the gay community here
in
>Dallas, Texas. For some reason, the gay community is into very
electronic
>music, old or not. JOHN

Unfortunately the gay community here is no longer quite so open to
things old. They still love electronic music but more Dance than
anything else. I should imagine that Australia and Texas would be a bit
similar. Hot, dusty and not very artistically inclined. Unfortunately
Brisabne is very inward looking and feels that it is the equal of
anywhere in the world. As a result standards here tend to be quite poor
- no striving to meet the world stage. It's hard to get noticed here as
there are no established venues for serious musicians. Classical
musicians shun new styles and the kids don't want to understand anything
that doesn't have a big beat. Oh well - that said I'm starting to get a
little interest in my work.

Lata
_________________________________
Benedict
Column 3-57
http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict


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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi

Stirred A bit of a pot here didn't I!

>I think thats one of the main things wrong with modern ROM wave based
>synthesizers and plain old library use of samplers. Aside from issues
of
>expression I won't go into here, the main problem is they are
>convenient. They make sounds good enough to say, ahh, those are strings

>or whatever. So the so called synthesists stop because its convenient
>enough and realistic enough. But thats the trap, its like the worst of
2
>possible worlds, the real and surreal. The real being acoustic
>instruments and the surreal being actual synthesis, not wave playback.
>But actual synthesis always takes longer to do, so thats the (in some
>ways valid but definitely regrettable) excuse for mediocrity.

This is very true. ROM based machines grab your attention but have
nowhere to go beyond. A string sample will always be just that - there's
no room for the imagination. Besides, samples have all kinds of
harmonics errors and so they sound arresting - followed by flat and
boring. People say that the sound quality of modern synths is better,
well apart from less hiss I can't agree. There's more treble but less
depth of timbre, which is where the music really is (not discounting the
importance of the notes). If it wasn't so impractical I would happily
turf all my modernish synths out for a room full of Moogs, ARPs etc so
that I could get that warmpth only found in records from the 70's.
Instead I'm starting to tread the path of Software Synths because they
offer the greatest potential for creating individual sounds - although
even there sound character is sacrificed for fidelity at almost every
turn. Oh to find a pet software writer.

Lata
_________________________________
Benedict
Column 3-57
http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict


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----- Original Message -----
From: Benedict <benedict at theinternet.com.au>
[...]
> Instead I'm starting to tread the path of Software Synths because they
> offer the greatest potential for creating individual sounds - although
> even there sound character is sacrificed for fidelity at almost every
> turn. Oh to find a pet software writer.[...]

Try NordLead Modular, it's a virtual analog alright.
Software patching with hardware I/O.
The problem with ROM based sound is too massive and lifeless loops,
but not this one. It also doesn't sound Roland for a change.


Dotty


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> Instead I'm starting to tread the path of Software Synths because they
> offer the greatest potential for creating individual sounds

mmm people were thinking of this 30 years ago and working on it much of
the time. I think when machines do over 1000 Mhz (or the equivalent of
custom DSP power) the brute force will finally allow for some fairly
good simulations. We are still too near the threashold of *any* realtime
wave generation to get anything subtle done

My favorite punchline is what the Virtual Synths of 2000 do best--
simulate the limited polyphony and high cost of 20 year old plain
average synths.

Sure you can get some software and run it on a computer, if you have a
spare, and get a
*couple* voices out of it, but still, thats not serious progress, it
just keeps a computer busy

> Try NordLead Modular, it's a virtual analog alright.
> Software patching with hardware I/O.
> The problem with ROM based sound is too massive and lifeless loops,
> but not this one. It also doesn't sound Roland for a change.
>
yeah, it sounds nord which is near plain old Roland filterwise. Its a
very good start, by the Nord Modular III or so I'd think it would be
superb. Good concept, a few too many weaknesses, it mainly looks real
good now in comparison to the other more bland units.

nick


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--- Benedict <benedict at theinternet.com.au> wrote:
> Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/
>
> Hi
>
> Stirred A bit of a pot here didn't I!
>
> >I think thats one of the main things wrong with
> modern ROM wave based
> >synthesizers and plain old library use of samplers.
> Aside from issues
> of
> >expression I won't go into here, the main problem
> is they are
> >convenient. They make sounds good enough to say,
> ahh, those are strings
>
> >or whatever. So the so called synthesists stop
> because its convenient
> >enough and realistic enough. But thats the trap,
> its like the worst of
> 2
> >possible worlds, the real and surreal. The real
> being acoustic
> >instruments and the surreal being actual synthesis,
> not wave playback.
> >But actual synthesis always takes longer to do, so
> thats the (in some
> >ways valid but definitely regrettable) excuse for
> mediocrity.
>
> This is very true. ROM based machines grab your
> attention but have
> nowhere to go beyond. A string sample will always be
> just that - there's
> no room for the imagination. Besides, samples have
> all kinds of
> harmonics errors and so they sound arresting -
> followed by flat and
> boring. People say that the sound quality of modern
> synths is better,
> well apart from less hiss I can't agree. There's
> more treble but less
> depth of timbre, which is where the music really is
> (not discounting the
> importance of the notes). If it wasn't so
> impractical I would happily
> turf all my modernish synths out for a room full of
> Moogs, ARPs etc so
> that I could get that warmpth only found in records
> from the 70's.
> Instead I'm starting to tread the path of Software
> Synths because they
> offer the greatest potential for creating individual
> sounds - although
> even there sound character is sacrificed for
> fidelity at almost every
> turn. Oh to find a pet software writer.
>
> Lata
> _________________________________
> Benedict
> Column 3-57
> http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to
> tomita-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>
______________________________________________________________________
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at
> http://www.listbot.com
> Hi there,
As a keyboardist/synthesist myself for over 30
years I can comment on this "debate".Samples and rom
based synths are only limited by the IMAGINATION of
the user.A string sample CAN be altered beyond
recognition with the filtering,envelopes,processors,or
whatever the synth/sampler has to offer.Don't blame
the instruments for substandard music.After all,Tomita
used Mellotron extensively which was a recorded tape
playback keyboard and had virtually NO way of changing
the tones other than external effects.He creatively
processed the choir tapes through the modular Moog
envelopes and filters to come up with outstanding
effects.I grew up with and also owned Moogs and
Mellotron and now extensively use digital synths and
samplers from Korg and Emu and can tell you that there
is really NO comparison in dealing with fluctuating
tunings and Mellotron motor whines or tape breakage.I
have a cd rom of Mellotron sounds which sounds every
bit as real as the original without the mechanical
problems.There will always be hardcore purists who
demand the "real thing" like Arps or Moogs(and I LOVE
their sounds) but try using them onstage for awhile
and you may change your opinion.
Even using standard "library" samples can be
unlimited if the user is a gifted talent.Many of
today's manufacturers hire very good programmers at
the factory to fill the synths with awesome sounds
"right out of the box" so you can start to compose
instantly while you learn the axe.It is a sorry
testimony to our times that artists such as Tomita-San
can't get the time of day from record companies who
are too busy smooching the MTV audience behinds...and
thus most of the public will NEVER have the chance to
be exposed to his abilities.Again....we cannot blame
the synthesizers for creating the pap we are
constantly hearing in the media.It's in the minds of
the players.
CHARLES
charel196 at yahoo.com
charel196 at yahoo.com
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Charles Thaxton wrote:

> > >I think thats one of the main things wrong with
> > modern ROM wave based
> > >synthesizers and plain old library use of samplers.
> > Aside from issues
> > of
> > >expression I won't go into here, the main problem
> > is they are
> > >convenient. They make sounds good enough to say,
> > ahh, those are strings
> >
> > >or whatever. So the so called synthesists stop
> > because its convenient
> > >enough and realistic enough. But thats the trap,
> > its like the worst of
> > 2
> > >possible worlds, the real and surreal. The real
> > being acoustic
> > >instruments and the surreal being actual synthesis,
> > not wave playback.
> > >But actual synthesis always takes longer to do, so
> > thats the (in some
> > >ways valid but definitely regrettable) excuse for
> > mediocrity.
> >
> > This is very true. ROM based machines grab your
> > attention but have
> > nowhere to go beyond. A string sample will always be
> > just that - there's
> > no room for the imagination. Besides, samples have
> > all kinds of
> > harmonics errors and so they sound arresting -
> > followed by flat and
> > boring. People say that the sound quality of modern
> > synths is better,
> > well apart from less hiss I can't agree. There's
> > more treble but less
> > depth of timbre, which is where the music really is
> > (not discounting the
> > importance of the notes). If it wasn't so
> > impractical I would happily
> > turf all my modernish synths out for a room full of
> > Moogs, ARPs etc so
> > that I could get that warmpth only found in records
> > from the 70's.
> > Instead I'm starting to tread the path of Software
> > Synths because they
> > offer the greatest potential for creating individual
> > sounds - although
> > even there sound character is sacrificed for
> > fidelity at almost every
> > turn. Oh to find a pet software writer.
> >
> > Lata
> > _________________________________
> > Benedict
> > Column 3-57
> > http://www.theinternet.com.au/~benedict

> > Hi there,
> As a keyboardist/synthesist myself for over 30
> years I can comment on this "debate".Samples and rom
> based synths are only limited by the IMAGINATION of
> the user.

Well one can't argue with the point as you phrased it because its true.

There are a couple critical issues here. Most anything can sound good
with creative processing, a Casio, a kazoo, a $30 sound card

A string sample CAN be altered beyond
> recognition with the filtering,envelopes,processors,

certainly true like if you have decent tools and put in the effort. It
can be overcome with imagination and more tools, but there are a lot of
synths sold which just simply have very paltry tools.

>or
> whatever the synth/sampler has to offer.Don't blame
> the instruments for substandard music.

Well sure its not just the instrument's fault, its the complacency of
the user just as much.

But I'm convinced there is a fundemental difference with the "good
enough" digital sounds of today. Even though in the past the process was
annoying and more difficult and the results were less emulative, you had
often had more interesting byproducts from the process since it was so
hard to repeat exactly

After all,Tomita
> used Mellotron extensively which was a recorded tape
> playback keyboard and had virtually NO way of changing
> the tones other than external effects.

though a large Moog is a nice effect

He creatively
> processed the choir tapes through the modular Moog
> envelopes and filters to come up with outstanding
> effects.I grew up with and also owned Moogs and
> Mellotron and now extensively use digital synths and
> samplers from Korg and Emu and can tell you that there
> is really NO comparison in dealing with fluctuating
> tunings and Mellotron motor whines or tape breakage.I
> have a cd rom of Mellotron sounds which sounds every
> bit as real as the original without the mechanical
> problems.There will always be hardcore purists who
> demand the "real thing" like Arps or Moogs(and I LOVE
> their sounds) but try using them onstage for awhile
> and you may change your opinion.

sure, live and reliability issues are a key problem. On the other hand
the time you save is probably going into making the music better, but
thats not the case with a lot of complacent musicians. There is a very
real difference. With the older less conveniant equipment, being lax or
sloppy would just sound plain unacceptable. But the difference takes
place with a box full of pretty ROM waves. It sounds good enough, so
most leave it at that.

As for the quality of samples, it goes without saying that as you use
more and more elaborate multisamples and repeat them less and less, then
process them interestingly, you wind up with something far nicer than 8
meg of compressed ROM waves with a lite cheap reverb on it. The
Mellotron was a pain, but its separate tape for each note sure has more
sonic interest than General MIDI. Yes you can have something with that
kind of info on a sampler with 12 meg or so per sound and none of the
maintainence, which I guess is a small acheivement

> Even using standard "library" samples can be
> unlimited if the user is a gifted talent.

Certainly...but given enough talent all kinds of things can be acheived.

Many of
> today's manufacturers hire very good programmers at
> the factory to fill the synths with awesome sounds
> "right out of the box" so you can start to compose
> instantly while you learn the axe.

though just as much effort is made to out impress whatever instruments
it competes against.

this really hit home with the Yamaha AN1x which makes an impression with
sophisticated arpeggiation and integrated effects when its basic tone
minus these is terribly mediocre.

thats where I must hand it to the Nord Lead, while I'm not bowled over
by its sound, at least they have the courrage to play it unadorned. Of
course the day I had a chance to try all the initial set of "virtual"
instruments, I also played a used 1984 Voyetra Eight and bought it. Its
that borderline where the sound hasn't started to malfunction but just
isn't quite perfect which is magical, given you have some expressive
ability available.


It is a sorry
> testimony to our times that artists such as Tomita-San
> can't get the time of day from record companies who
> are too busy smooching the MTV audience behinds...

As I keep mentioning, he's doing big projects, Genji certainly isn't a
throwaway project effortwise or supportwise. It is real sad he's not
doing the classical versions everyone loves, but his current comissioned
projects more than prove he isn't sitting there neglected and he does
get a chance to create.


and
> thus most of the public will NEVER have the chance to
> be exposed to his abilities.Again....we cannot blame
> the synthesizers for creating the pap we are
> constantly hearing in the media.It's in the minds of
> the players.

true. One hopes with the internet people all over will have access to
material from far off. There certainly is great material that just isn't
getting out of Japan, and certainly the media giants are to blame for
deciding its easiest for them to know what we want to listen to.

nick
http://welcome.to/synths


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