wordless words

In graphics, when you are composing a layout and you want to just show what
text will look like without having the actual words that will be there, you
fill the area with gibberish..often in latin, just to complete the layout
work.


Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets. I'm
getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the sounds of
speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well beyond the
simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely well) I
especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown in The
Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that alternates
between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's fun when the
melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and BOO's are in
reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats. Very simple
idea, extremely clever. What a Master!

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...

 

In a message dated 9/26/01 2:28:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
digiboy at n... writes:

> Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets. I'm
> getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the sounds of
> speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well beyond the
> simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely well) I
> especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown in The
> Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that alternates
> between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's fun when the
> melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and BOO's are in
> reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats. Very simple
> idea, extremely clever. What a Master!


I totally agree! I have no idea how he got all the different "talking"
sounds at the begining of Planets and elsewhere... and I've been playing
around with synths for about the past 20+ years! Did he use a vocoder
perhaps?

Either way, it's incredible.

Andrew Sanchez

 

on 27/9/01 1:37 pm, ixqy at a... at ixqy at a... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/26/01 2:28:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
> digiboy at n... writes:
>
>> Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets. I'm
>> getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the sounds of
>> speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well beyond the
>> simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely well) I
>> especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown in The
>> Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that alternates
>> between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's fun when the
>> melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and BOO's are in
>> reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats. Very simple
>> idea, extremely clever. What a Master!
>
>
> I totally agree! I have no idea how he got all the different "talking"
> sounds at the begining of Planets and elsewhere... and I've been playing
> around with synths for about the past 20+ years! Did he use a vocoder
> perhaps?
>
> Either way, it's incredible.
>
> Andrew Sanchez

Presumably with an analogue sequencer, with the filter setting for each note
in sequential positions, and the gate on of a particular note advancing the
sequence, thereby opening or closing the filter.

Does that make even 1% sense?!

Ben


-----

My Freelancers Portfolio: http://benjaminward.freelancers.net/index.html
Korg Analogue Synthesizers: http://www.benward.net/korg

 

> >> Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets. I'm
> >> getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the sounds of
> >> speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well beyond the
> >> simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely well) I
> >> especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown in The
> >> Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that alternates
> >> between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's fun when the
> >> melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and BOO's are in
> >> reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats. Very simple
> >> idea, extremely clever. What a Master!
> >
> >
> > I totally agree! I have no idea how he got all the different "talking"
> > sounds at the begining of Planets and elsewhere... and I've been playing
> > around with synths for about the past 20+ years! Did he use a vocoder
> > perhaps?
> >
> > Either way, it's incredible.
> >
> > Andrew Sanchez
>
> Presumably with an analogue sequencer, with the filter setting for each note
> in sequential positions, and the gate on of a particular note advancing the
> sequence, thereby opening or closing the filter.
>
> Does that make even 1% sense?!

Sounds reasonable. In fact, it's not really difficult to imitate the Tomita
"vocal" sounds on an analogue synthesizer if you use much filter resonance and
experiment some time with cutoff and envelope settings. I remember coming
quite close to it on a Korg Mono/Poly, although rather by chance.

 

>on 27/9/01 1:37 pm, ixqy at a... at ixqy at a... wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 9/26/01 2:28:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
>> digiboy at n... writes:
>>
>>> Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The Planets. I'm
>>> getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the sounds of
>>> speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well beyond the
>>> simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely well) I
>>> especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown in The
>>> Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that alternates
>>> between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's fun when the
>>> melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and BOO's are in
>>> reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats. Very simple
>>> idea, extremely clever. What a Master!
>>
>>
>> I totally agree! I have no idea how he got all the different "talking"
>> sounds at the begining of Planets and elsewhere... and I've been playing
>> around with synths for about the past 20+ years! Did he use a vocoder
>> perhaps?
>>
>> Either way, it's incredible.
>>
>> Andrew Sanchez
>
>Presumably with an analogue sequencer, with the filter setting for each note
>in sequential positions, and the gate on of a particular note advancing the
>sequence, thereby opening or closing the filter.
>
>Does that make even 1% sense?!
>
>Ben

Yes I'd guess that to be part of it anyway. For the BAA-BOO-BAA's he really
didn't need more than a 2 step sequencer or a simple switch to get the
filter to toggle between the 2 sounds as the melody progressed. The
Launch sequence dialog is interesting because while there are no words, the
pitch seems to simulate the normal pauses and frequency changes of a
speaking voice. That might lead logically to guess that perhaps he started
with actual speech as a source. Perhaps he ran it thru a very sensitive
gated pitch follower. This would leave him with a series of "notes" that
have no vocal quality except for the frequency pattern of speech. Then he
could apply his own vocal filtering effects to that to creat the simulation
of language. Kind of like when they used to trace over film of live action
to create animation effects -I think they call it Roto-scoping? That's my
guess but only the T-man knows for sure...

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...

 

--- In isaotomita at y..., "Mike B (digiboy)" <digiboy at n...> wrote:
> >on 27/9/01 1:37 pm, ixqy at a... at ixqy at a... wrote:
> >
> >> In a message dated 9/26/01 2:28:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
> >> digiboy at n... writes:
> >>
> >>> Listening to Tomita today, Pictures at an Exhibition and The
Planets. I'm
> >>> getting a big charge out of how Tomita likes to simulate the
sounds of
> >>> speaking and singing without using real words. He goes well
beyond the
> >>> simple doo-doo-doo- laa laa laa (which he also does extremely
well) I
> >>> especially love the pre-launch radio "dialog" and countdown
in The
> >>> Planets. And he also has this tool of using a filter that
alternates
> >>> between a BAA and a BOO sound for every succesive note. It's
fun when the
> >>> melodic line is an odd number of notes so that the BAA's and
BOO's are in
> >>> reversed position in the melodic sequence each time it repeats.
Very simple
> >>> idea, extremely clever. What a Master!
> >>
> >>
> >> I totally agree! I have no idea how he got all the
different "talking"
> >> sounds at the begining of Planets and elsewhere... and I've been
playing
> >> around with synths for about the past 20+ years! Did he use a
vocoder
> >> perhaps?
> >>
> >> Either way, it's incredible.
> >>
> >> Andrew Sanchez
> >
> >Presumably with an analogue sequencer, with the filter setting for
each note
> >in sequential positions, and the gate on of a particular note
advancing the
> >sequence, thereby opening or closing the filter.
> >
> >Does that make even 1% sense?!
> >
> >Ben
>
> Yes I'd guess that to be part of it anyway. For the BAA-BOO-BAA's
he really
> didn't need more than a 2 step sequencer or a simple switch to get
the
> filter to toggle between the 2 sounds as the melody progressed.
The
> Launch sequence dialog is interesting because while there are no
words, the
> pitch seems to simulate the normal pauses and frequency changes of
a
> speaking voice. That might lead logically to guess that perhaps he
started
> with actual speech as a source. Perhaps he ran it thru a very
sensitive
> gated pitch follower. This would leave him with a series
of "notes" that
> have no vocal quality except for the frequency pattern of speech.
Then he
> could apply his own vocal filtering effects to that to creat the
simulation
> of language. Kind of like when they used to trace over film of live
action
> to create animation effects -I think they call it Roto-scoping?
That's my
> guess but only the T-man knows for sure...
>
> Mike Berman
> digiboy at n...


Yes, I think it's very possible that he did something like this.
Like ya said though...who knows for sure except the man himself. : )

I haven't been able to get anything approching the sounds he came
up with. Using 3 parallel bandpass filters contolled with lfos, I've
been able to get a repeated yeah-yeah-yeah type sound, but that was
about it.

Andrew

 

Let's not forget the wonderful tricks Tomita did with
the mellotron's choirs...like running them through
filters and ADSRs to get different attack and
sustains,as well as using aaahs and ooohs on different
tracks of the tron tapes and switching them with the
track selector knob for a nice morph.All way before
sampling keyboards.LOVE his tron sounds....always
have.
Charles

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>Let's not forget the wonderful tricks Tomita did with
>the mellotron's choirs...like running them through
>filters and ADSRs to get different attack and
>sustains,as well as using aaahs and ooohs on different
>tracks of the tron tapes and switching them with the
>track selector knob for a nice morph.All way before
>sampling keyboards.LOVE his tron sounds....always
>have.
> Charles

I never much liked mellotrons myself. Tomita made the sound work for him
about the best I've heard. To me it's like a very poor quality tape that
has deteriorated thru several generations of copying. I mean that's sort
of what it actually is anyway. You're supposed to think of it as a
different instrument but to my ears it always sounds like "bad" tape and
then I have to say to myself-oh yeah that's a mellotron...

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...

 

> Yes I'd guess that to be part of it anyway. For the BAA-BOO-BAA's he really
> didn't need more than a 2 step sequencer or a simple switch to get the
> filter to toggle between the 2 sounds as the melody progressed. The
> Launch sequence dialog is interesting because while there are no words, the
> pitch seems to simulate the normal pauses and frequency changes of a
> speaking voice. That might lead logically to guess that perhaps he started
> with actual speech as a source. Perhaps he ran it thru a very sensitive
> gated pitch follower. This would leave him with a series of "notes" that
> have no vocal quality except for the frequency pattern of speech. Then he
> could apply his own vocal filtering effects to that to creat the simulation
> of language. Kind of like when they used to trace over film of live action
> to create animation effects -I think they call it Roto-scoping? That's my
> guess but only the T-man knows for sure...
>

I'm pretty sure he's using several band pass filter (or more specificly
in moog module terminology several highpass, lowpass and coupler sets).

A lot of physics of sound type textbooks tables of formants (theres one
on the doepfer site for the triple resonant filter module). With 3 band
pass filters you can make most vowel sounds fairly well. You don't need
to analyze anything that intesely, some of it is just using ears once
you have several band pass filters.

So then he probably did use his sequencer (since there just happen to be
3 stored values per step on the standard Moog sequencer)

He is not using actual speech for that sound (but later on he did use
some vocoding and processing for different effects)

A pitch follower would just wiggle the pitch as it tracked it, the
differentiation between one vowel and another is not contained in the
pitch at all.

More effective, but whats not happening here is vocoding. Theres stuff
on the web on them. They can be built with a large number of stick
modules if you don't have a dedicated one. Carlos used 2 modified fixed
filter banks and 10 stock envalope followers and 10 stock VCAs for the
one used for the singing in "Clockwork Orange". But as I said Tomita is
doing something more simple and not real vocoding.

The rotascoping-like process is generally called resynthesis. Its
generally implemented with digital technology. One stores the levels for
a large number of frequencies real life frequencies changing over time
then uses multiple oscillators to recreate the stored results on demand.
This isn't sampling. Sampling just stores a waveform.

the big choirs that wash through everything are the mellotron using the
moog filters and envalope

nick
http://mp3.com/ndkent

 

on 28/9/01 4:50 am, Andrew at ixqy at a... wrote:

> Yes, I think it's very possible that he did something like this.
> Like ya said though...who knows for sure except the man himself. : )
>
> I haven't been able to get anything approching the sounds he came
> up with. Using 3 parallel bandpass filters contolled with lfos, I've
> been able to get a repeated yeah-yeah-yeah type sound, but that was
> about it.
>
> Andrew

John and I did want to get into this tech talk when we met and interviewed
him some years back, but 2 hours just isn't enough, especially when
everything has to get translated back and forth from English to Japanese.

Ben


-----

My Freelancers Portfolio: http://benjaminward.freelancers.net/index.html
Korg Analogue Synthesizers: http://www.benward.net/korg

 

--- In isaotomita at y..., Benjamin Ward <benjaminward at b...> wrote:
> on 28/9/01 4:50 am, Andrew at ixqy at a... wrote:
>
> > Yes, I think it's very possible that he did something like this.
> > Like ya said though...who knows for sure except the man
himself. : )
> >
> > I haven't been able to get anything approching the sounds he came
> > up with. Using 3 parallel bandpass filters contolled with lfos,
I've
> > been able to get a repeated yeah-yeah-yeah type sound, but that
was
> > about it.
> >
> > Andrew
>
> John and I did want to get into this tech talk when we met and
interviewed
> him some years back, but 2 hours just isn't enough, especially when
> everything has to get translated back and forth from English to
Japanese.
>
> Ben


I would have loved to have heard insight about his synthesis
techniques, but I can understand the language issue complicating
things. : (

What was Tomita like by the way? I mean, did he laugh at all or talk
about anything other than his music?

Thanks,
Andrew

 

> I haven't been able to get anything approching the sounds he came
>up with. Using 3 parallel bandpass filters contolled with lfos, I've
>been able to get a repeated yeah-yeah-yeah type sound, but that was
>about it.
>
> Andrew

I have an Oberheim Expander (midi version circa 1984) and was able to get "close" because of its
multi-mode filters, and settting up different patches with different filters and cycling through
them in multi-patch mode.

My suggestion: Try using midi and sequencers to "step" thrugh patches as opposed to an LFO approach.

Amin

amin at b...
http://www.bhatiamusic.com

 

Why don't you try getting a JP-8080 from roland.
After all, HE DID HELP DESIGN THE THING - AT LEAST THE SOUNDS ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have a Sampler, and just want the sounds, you can buy the sounds from nicebytes,
as they make sample CD's- go on EBAY and look under the AKAI sampler (search on AKAI)
and you can get the Sample CD of the JP8080 for about $30 if you don't have$1,000 to spend.
I also got a Yamaha AN1X CD as well. I actually bought a JP8080 a while back before the sampler.
You have about 50-70 knobs to turn on the JP8080, an it operates just like an old synth, except you can
STORE what you are doing in the internal memory or the Smart Card.
It's lots of fun getting the sounds from an analog synth, I admit, but the
JP8080 has them clearly defined, and if you buy one of those you can see what the
settings are and plug them into your ARP2600, Moog, Oberheim, or whatever.
Then you might come close. Just a thought.
----- Original Message -----
From: Amin Bhatia
To: isaotomita at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [isaotomita] Re: wordless words


> I haven't been able to get anything approching the sounds he came
>up with. Using 3 parallel bandpass filters contolled with lfos, I've
>been able to get a repeated yeah-yeah-yeah type sound, but that was
>about it.
>
> Andrew

I have an Oberheim Expander (midi version circa 1984) and was able to get"close" because of its
multi-mode filters, and settting up different patches with different filters and cycling through
them in multi-patch mode.

My suggestion: Try using midi and sequencers to "step" thrugh patches as opposed to an LFO approach.

Amin

amin at b...
http://www.bhatiamusic.com


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You know what they say -
The only good mellotron is a Sampled mellotron---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike B (digiboy)
To: isaotomita at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [isaotomita] Re: wordless words


>Let's not forget the wonderful tricks Tomita did with
>the mellotron's choirs...like running them through
>filters and ADSRs to get different attack and
>sustains,as well as using aaahs and ooohs on different
>tracks of the tron tapes and switching them with the
>track selector knob for a nice morph.All way before
>sampling keyboards.LOVE his tron sounds....always
>have.
> Charles

I never much liked mellotrons myself. Tomita made the sound work for him
about the best I've heard. To me it's like a very poor quality tape that
has deteriorated thru several generations of copying. I mean that's sort
of what it actually is anyway. You're supposed to think of it as a
different instrument but to my ears it always sounds like "bad" tape and
then I have to say to myself-oh yeah that's a mellotron...

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...





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In a message dated 9/28/01 8:30:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
amin at b... writes:

> I have an Oberheim Expander (midi version circa 1984) and was able to get "
> close" because of its
> multi-mode filters, and settting up different patches with different
filters
> and cycling through
> them in multi-patch mode.
>
> My suggestion: Try using midi and sequencers to "step" thrugh patches as
> opposed to an LFO approach.
>
> Amin
>
> amin at b...
> http://www.bhatiamusic.com

Hello Amin,
Pleased to meet you! I bought your Intersteller Suite LP when it came out
back in the late 80's and I really liked what I heard. Very nice! To the
other listmembers here, may I suggest checking out the bhatiamusic link. I'm
sure other Tomita fans will appreciate Amin's music.

Anyway, thanks for the sequencer idea. I'll see what kind of results I get
using this aproach.

Andrew

 

--- In isaotomita at y..., co191 at h... wrote:
> Further to the 'Wordless words' thread, I have added an audio
> section to the "Sound Creature" part of the site, which you can
> navigate to from the homepage: http://www.isaotomita.org/
> Click on the 'Sounds' link to get to the mp3's. It might go part
way
> towards explaining the Moog synthesizer 'vocalisation'
> treatments whihc were discussed.

It's me, Ben by the way folks!

 

Further to the 'Wordless words' thread, I have added an audio
section to the "Sound Creature" part of the site, which you can
navigate to from the homepage: http://www.isaotomita.org/
Click on the 'Sounds' link to get to the mp3's. It might go part way
towards explaining the Moog synthesizer 'vocalisation'
treatments whihc were discussed.

 

In a message dated 10/11/01 7:16:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
co191 at h... writes:

> Further to the 'Wordless words' thread, I have added an audio
> section to the "Sound Creature" part of the site, which you can
> navigate to from the homepage: http://www.isaotomita.org/
> Click on the 'Sounds' link to get to the mp3's. It might go part way
> towards explaining the Moog synthesizer 'vocalisation'
> treatments whihc were discussed.


That is simply.... AMAZING!!! (oh, sorry : ). I listened to those samples
probably 5 times each. It's incredible to hear how at each stage, the sound
takes shape. No doubt about it, Tomita is a synthesis genius!

Listening to the samples, I sort of get the feeling that he's using a ribbon
controller to control osc pitch modulation. During the "countdown" sample,
you can hear what sounds like an envelope generator modulating pitch in a
positive direction, but then it changes to a negative modulation on the fifth
note. Each note also has differing intensities of pitch modulation. I think
this type of effect could easily happen if a ribbon controller were being
used.

Anyway, thank you Ben for putting these sound clips up. I'd really like to
track down a copy of this record!

Andrew Sanchez

 

A _long_ time ago, Charles wrote:

...
> track selector knob for a nice morph.All way before
> sampling keyboards.LOVE his tron sounds....always
> have.
> Charles

What do you mean by "tron" sounds?

I thought Wendy Charlos did the tron sound track.

Can you tell me what some good examples are?
I would love to hear what you are talking about!!

Thanks!

Kevin

 

Hello Kevin
"tron" means Mellotron,the tape-playback keyboard of
the 60s and 70s,which Tomita used for all his deep
choir sounds.Visit www.mellotron.com for info and
history
Or listen to old Yes,Moody Blues,King
Crimson,Genesis albums to hear other mellotron bits
like strings,flutes,cellos,brasses.....pre-digital
sampling. Charles

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