Apocalypse Now Redux

I mentioned here that the Sept '01 issue of Keyboard Magazine did an
article on the guy who did the music for the newly added Apocalypse Now
material in the re-release. He said his approach was to try to emulate
Tomita based on his understanding that the original team were doing that.

In the November issue Patric Gleeson, who headed the original team (with
synth pioneer Bernie Krause, Don Preston, synth designer Nyle Steiner
and Shirley Walker, who later became well known from her work on Batman)
wrote a letter saying he takes offense with that allegation. Gleeson of
course did his own version of Holst's the Planets co-incidently at the
same time as Tomita. He does confirm that Coppola did initially contact
Tomita and of course this doesn't dispute the fact that the *new* music
was intentionally inspired by Tomita based on that wrong? assumption I guess.

He does mention that original co-composer Carmine Coppola was "copping"
Holst's "Mars".

Speaking of which Vangelis' "Mythodea" is just out. Is it too much of a
coincidence that he not only does a movement reminicent of Holst's
"Mars" but adds a spoken countdown at the start to his version?

nick

 

>In the November issue Patric Gleeson, who headed the
>original team (with synth pioneer Bernie Krause, Don Preston,
>synth designer Nyle Steiner

Didn't Nyle Steiner help design the Synclavier, as part of New
England Digital?

Vangelis's Mythodea sounds pretty interesting; formidable "cast
list" - Kathleen Battle, Jessye Norman, 100 voice choir, massed
tympani etc!

Thanks Nick.

Ben

 

> Didn't Nyle Steiner help design the Synclavier, as part of New
> England Digital?

not that I know of, he's the key name in the development wind
controllers (EVI), which Akai accuired from him as memory serves. He
once had his own line of analog synths that are still respected
(Steiner-Parker Synthacon)

> Vangelis's Mythodea sounds pretty interesting; formidable "cast
> list" - Kathleen Battle, Jessye Norman, 100 voice choir, massed
> tympani etc!

Its quite interesting stuff, its a bit sad that its the nature of the
event that allowed him to get Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman, sign
with Sony Classical(who are doing a dissapointing job with 1998 signee
Ryuichi Sakamoto btw)... that also made him decide to use a real
orchestra transcribed from his unheard studio recordings rather than
playing the piece himself multitrack... on the other hand he's usually
used real percussion, so yes, no let down on the tympani

nick

 

>I mentioned here that the Sept '01 issue of Keyboard Magazine did an
>article on the guy who did the music for the newly added Apocalypse Now
>material in the re-release. He said his approach was to try to emulate
>Tomita based on his understanding that the original team were doing that.
>
>In the November issue Patric Gleeson, who headed the original team (with
>synth pioneer Bernie Krause, Don Preston, synth designer Nyle Steiner
>and Shirley Walker, who later became well known from her work on Batman)
>wrote a letter saying he takes offense with that allegation. He does
>confirm that Coppola did initially contact
>Tomita and of course this doesn't dispute the fact that the *new* music
>was intentionally inspired by Tomita based on that wrong? assumption I guess.
>
>

That's interesting to me because I never heard anything in the original
version of Apoc. that reminded of Tomita in any way. I suppose the
helicopter emulation at the beginning could be said to have a Tomita-like
feel to it, but only because he could have done it, not because it
specifically sounds like him. So the Tomita stylings in the Redux version
may have been because of an incorrect assumption... That's pretty ironic,
tho probably things like that happen in film production all the time. I've
seen some interviews with Coppola about the Redux version and his
motivation for making it was, so he claims, purely financial. He seemed
almost disinterested in the artistic level of it. Even so, it doesn't take
away from the new version being wonderful to watch (and hear). I suspect
he cares more than he lets on.

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...

 

I do have to agree with you mike -
This is one of my favorite films. The only music that really stuck
out to me was"The End" from the Doors, which sounded nothing
like a tomita song. Sure there were some synth parts, and such,
but using a synthesizer does not make one sound like the Great "Tomita"
Just because they used a (Common) Arp 2600 or a Moog does not mean
one composes / plays / arranges / records classical music with a synth the way Tomita does.
That's like saying everyone who uses a Hammond Organ sounds like
the keyboard player from Santana!!! (Whatever his name is)
Tomita himself composes very little original music, remember, he mostly arranges for
synthesizer, and gives us his own adaptation of it. This neither makes him good nor bad,
but it IS A FACT! There are many musicans who play Holst, Beethoven, Motzart, etc...
and that's all they do. Nothing wrong with it, it's just not 100 % Original.
What IS Original is the Performance of it, and the choice of instrumentation, and sounds,
which Tomita is nothing but a Master of. Who knows - Maybe he was inspired by
Walter / Wendy Carlos instead, which means he's telling the truth !!!
Just my 2 Cents, and humorous points ....

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike B (digiboy)
To: isaotomita at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [isaotomita] Apocalypse Now Redux


>I mentioned here that the Sept '01 issue of Keyboard Magazine did an
>article on the guy who did the music for the newly added Apocalypse Now
>material in the re-release. He said his approach was to try to emulate
>Tomita based on his understanding that the original team were doing that.
>
>In the November issue Patric Gleeson, who headed the original team (with
>synth pioneer Bernie Krause, Don Preston, synth designer Nyle Steiner
>and Shirley Walker, who later became well known from her work on Batman)
>wrote a letter saying he takes offense with that allegation. He does
>confirm that Coppola did initially contact
>Tomita and of course this doesn't dispute the fact that the *new* music
>was intentionally inspired by Tomita based on that wrong? assumption I guess.
>
>

That's interesting to me because I never heard anything in the original
version of Apoc. that reminded of Tomita in any way. I suppose the
helicopter emulation at the beginning could be said to have a Tomita-like
feel to it, but only because he could have done it, not because it
specifically sounds like him. So the Tomita stylings in the Redux version
may have been because of an incorrect assumption... That's pretty ironic,
tho probably things like that happen in film production all the time. I've
seen some interviews with Coppola about the Redux version and his
motivation for making it was, so he claims, purely financial. He seemed
almost disinterested in the artistic level of it. Even so, it doesn't take
away from the new version being wonderful to watch (and hear). I suspect
he cares more than he lets on.

Mike Berman
digiboy at n...





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> I do have to agree with you mike -
> This is one of my favorite films. The only music that really stuck
> out to me was"The End" from the Doors, which sounded nothing
> like a tomita song. Sure there were some synth parts, and such,
> but using a synthesizer does not make one sound like the Great "Tomita"
> Just because they used a (Common) Arp 2600 or a Moog does not mean
> one composes / plays / arranges / records classical music with a synth the way Tomita does.

While of course your premise is correct, for what its worth, the
original Gleeson lead team used a big polyphonic Emu modular and several
Moog III series instruments, hardly anything stock, and of course the
IIIc is in common with Tomita.

The newly recorded, Tomita-like material conversely was done on much
more standard gear.

> That's like saying everyone who uses a Hammond Organ sounds like
> the keyboard player from Santana!!! (Whatever his name is)

Of course. But remember the chain of events. Coppola wanted Tomita to do
him and his dad's score. Coppola instead hired the best local people
available who claim they had no intent of trying to be Tomita-like, and
I'll go with that. Ed Goldfarb who did the new music said himself that
he was trying to do Tomita influenced music.

> Tomita himself composes very little original music,

err... you should research that. Actually Tomita just composes very
little original music that gets released outside Japan. Then again a
fair amount of his last release in the U.S. was original.

Not to pick on
you, but how do you think he makes a living considering no one is
offering him proper contracts to make classical synth albums? To him a
side project, though at their height of popularity, I suspect he spent
most of his time on them.

> remember, he mostly arranges for
> synthesizer, and gives us his own adaptation of it. This neither makes him good nor bad,
> but it IS A FACT! There are many musicans who play Holst, Beethoven, Motzart, etc...

Well yes, he's doing arrangements for synthesizer. Again not to really
pick on you but there are not a lot of musicians who play whole
symphonic works themselves! Now I guess with computers and soundcards
and the like (called DTM, desktop music for what its worth in Japan),
but certainly not in the 70s even 80s. Others had big sessions with a conductor
and you had reductions of big pieces played by smaller virtuoso
ensembles, and of course the direction you seem to be discussing falls
within classical orchestral works, so
the bulk of them are un-arranged but certainly performed. Its a
conductor leading an orchestra
in a rendition (not an arrangement)

I'd say the majority of the time the peformer is not the arranger
anyway, Few classical singers compose, Rachmaninoff was about the only
classical virtuoso performer who was also top composer in the 20th century.
Doesn't really apply directly here but its a good FYI. I guess Boulez
and Bernstein are good conductor composers. Stravinsky could conduct
well, Ravel couldn't, Debussy didn't.

> and that's all they do. Nothing wrong with it, it's just not 100 % Original.

arrangements can be very original

See I guess the confusion here. First in how music is considered as
artwork and performance

Like no one says never play that again or play it a little different
'cause its just not original. The point of originality rears its head
when someone tries to pass a copy or partial copy of something someone
else did as their
original piece. In other words a copycat thing. Sometimes its tough to
call because few things are vastly copied. There certainly is a grey
line between showing the influence of something else and incorporating
part of some other artists work without due credit.

The point and positive nature of influence really lies in the results.
Has the resultant work not only benefitted but as a whole made a
contribution to the betterment of that kind of artwork? Thats the right
kind of influence then, when the reults of it are seen in a fine piece
of new work, not a derivitive work, which while new in some respect

This can go off on a couple tangents. First off there is an eternal
debate in that some people just don't think synthesizers are heard and
used best
when they are being used as instruments to (re)create the sounds of
traditional orchestral (or solo acoustic) compositions, being a new
instrument, many feel synthesizers are best revealed through music
specifically composed with the intent of being played on synthesizers,
not adapted to them. Its a purist type thing and a personal prefrence.
Maybe its like people insisting that Mozart should be played on 18th
century instruments not today's acoustic instruments, folk music
shouldn't use any electric instruments, etc.

> What IS Original is the Performance of it, and the choice of instrumentation, and sounds,
> which Tomita is nothing but a Master of. Who knows - Maybe he was inspired by
> Walter / Wendy Carlos instead, which means he's telling the truth !!!

he says he was, but he bought his style which is a fuller orchestral
sound, the choirs, etc.

Its quite interesting in that if you hear his work in the late 60s, he
has no moog, but he's still sweeping and flanging what he can get a hold of.

Anyway the point always is, is it communicating? is it truely
satisfying? To us certainly the answer is yes.

nick

 

On Saturday, October 27, 2001, at 07:09 am, N. Kent wrote:

>offering him proper contracts to make classical synth albums?
>To him a side project, though at their height of popularity, I
>suspect he spent most of his time on them.

>From the interview John and I did with I.T. in 1999, I do know that
at the age of nearly 70 he admits to being just too old have the
time to record with analogue synthesizers. This is presumably
despite the fact that during his 'Golden Age' in the 1970's and
1980's he used outside programming assistance more and
more (and I imagine still does.) The amount the work involved in
creating something like The Bermuda Triangle seems
formidable, even with computerised and human assistance.

It still amazes me, when you listen to something like The
Firebird, how anyone would have the patience it would take to
programme something as complex that, even with the score in
front of you! I guess thats why we're all on this list though.


Ben

 

> >From the interview John and I did with I.T. in 1999, I do know that
> at the age of nearly 70 he admits to being just too old have the
> time to record with analogue synthesizers. This is presumably
> despite the fact that during his 'Golden Age' in the 1970's and
> 1980's he used outside programming assistance more and
> more (and I imagine still does.) The amount the work involved in
> creating something like The Bermuda Triangle seems
> formidable, even with computerised and human assistance.

But this belies the fact that he's still doing it, as one of the Disney
Sea cues is supposed to be all synths.

My impression in talking to him is, yes, he's had serious difficulty
spending the weeks it takes patching and tweaking, though as you will
recall, his 1980s classical material was not even particularily modular
based. But more recently he's also grown to appreciate the Moog sounds
far more than back then. As we know, he made a compromise on "Bach
Fantasy" where he sampled his own Moogs for quick recall and poly sequencing.

I think its down to the classical synth albums (and even film scores
with synths) taking very long. And unlike say Wendy Carlos who will
spend the months/years first and then try to find a label deal, Tomita
is in demand for doing orchestral scores on a fairly regular basis but
no one is coming to him to do the classical synth work.

nick

 

sorry to interrupt the chat, but I am moving across country and I have some mint
and near mint Tomita vinyl that I can not take with me. Among many others... Is
anyone interested in this. I'd probably take $5 a piece. can give titles... email
at barney at m...

"N. Kent" wrote:

> > >From the interview John and I did with I.T. in 1999, I do know that
> > at the age of nearly 70 he admits to being just too old have the
> > time to record with analogue synthesizers. This is presumably
> > despite the fact that during his 'Golden Age' in the 1970's and
> > 1980's he used outside programming assistance more and
> > more (and I imagine still does.) The amount the work involved in
> > creating something like The Bermuda Triangle seems
> > formidable, even with computerised and human assistance.
>
> But this belies the fact that he's still doing it, as one of the Disney
> Sea cues is supposed to be all synths.
>
> My impression in talking to him is, yes, he's had serious difficulty
> spending the weeks it takes patching and tweaking, though as you will
> recall, his 1980s classical material was not even particularily modular
> based. But more recently he's also grown to appreciate the Moog sounds
> far more than back then. As we know, he made a compromise on "Bach
> Fantasy" where he sampled his own Moogs for quick recall and poly sequencing.
>
> I think its down to the classical synth albums (and even film scores
> with synths) taking very long. And unlike say Wendy Carlos who will
> spend the months/years first and then try to find a label deal, Tomita
> is in demand for doing orchestral scores on a fairly regular basis but
> no one is coming to him to do the classical synth work.
>
> nick
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> isaotomita-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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