Debate Capitalism or Communism?

For the greater good, to make your post shorter, the thought police have decreed you agree with Communism.

 

And capitalists who defeated Nazi Germany along with communists; capitalists who defeated Imperial Japan, and didn't end up with bread lines being a major factor in their society.

Say all you want about the "heroic" efforts of communism; their atrocities are not cancelled out (nor is their idea that a restrictive government with control over all media and transport a good idea).

 

The bread lines were true but only for little while. The Soviets lost 21million people. Recovery needed to be made. The Soviet Union evolved into a wonderful nation later on.

 

Which promptly fell, and had its share of atrocities and abuse of neighbouring nations in the meantime.

[Ruthless sarcasm]And China and North Korea have done terrific jobs of being shining beacons of light for all communists to be proud of. [/Ruthless sarcasm]

 

I'm a Titoist. We Titoists feel that there is no set path to Communism. It depends on that nation in question. As for China it's starting to decay into Capitalism. North Korea I'm neutral on.

 

Well personally I have intense problems imagining anyone who could support a government system which, in its manifesto, declared that transit, communication and even who mates with who should be controlled by the government.

Now granted, odds are you support some ideas communism has, not all. I can understand that. However on the whole I still dislike the idea, especially since all the businesses are state-owned in communism anyway. Meanwhile, in capitalism, if I do not like a companys product or practices, I can simply not buy their products and weaken them. In enough numbers, that company will fall. They can either adapt, or fall.

Furthermore capitalism enjoys an evolutionary feature in its products. In order to beat the competition, a company will make cheaper and/or better products and/or improved customer relations. Other companies in turn will try to beat them, typically by the same means. What this amounts to is an ever-improving array of products and customer treatment.

 

The things I support about Communism are:

Equal opportunities for everyone.

No homelessness.

Free education.

ect.

Are their bad things about Communism? Yes. I don't agree with alot of the bad things Communism has done but I understand some of it.

 

Except Communism by default doesn't support equal oppurtunities.

From the Manifesto: "Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture."

What sounds better to you? Being paid to work, or being forced to work? Choosing an employer based on pay and benefits, or being forcibly conscripted into an "industrial army?" The phrase "obligation to work" sounds better than "being forced to work by threat of punishment", but without the possibility of positive incentive, it means the same thing. Suppose you decide that you would rather move to a small cabin up north, live largely off the land, and do just a little bit of occasional work for spending money? In a capitalist society, you would be forced to adopt an austere lifestyle, but no one would stop you. But your national leaders would accuse you of not pulling your weight, and you would be forced to go work the same way as everyone else.

To me, it's no oppurtunity; only orders.

As far as free education, yes, I agree with that, but in the Manifesto it's also free education... in the form of state boarding schools merged with factories. Brain washing, if you ask me.

 

Stalin was a nice man. Giving all those people vactaions to Siberia.

 

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/1936toc.html

Some very important articles of the Constitution of the U.S.S.R.

ARTICLE 118. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. have the right to work, that is, are guaranteed the right to employment and payment for their work in accordance With its quantity and quality.

The right to work is ensured by the socialist organization of the national economy, the steady growth of the productive forces of Soviet society, the elimination of the possibility of economic crises, and the abolition of unemployment.

ARTICLE 119. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. have the right to rest and leisure. The right to rest and leisure is ensured by the reduction of the working day to seven hours for the overwhelming majority of the workers, the institution of annual vacations with full pay for workers and employees and the provision of a wide network of sanatoria, rest homes and clubs for the accommodation of the working people.

ARTICLE 120. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. have the right to maintenance in old age and also in case of sickness or loss of capacity to work. This right is ensured by the extensive development of social insurance of workers and employees at state expense, free medical service for the working people and the provision of a wide network of health resorts for the use of the working people.

ARTICLE 121. Citizens of the U.S.S.R. have the right to education. This right is ensured by universal, compulsory elementary education; by education, including higher education, being free of charge; by the system of state stipends for the overwhelming majority of students in the universities and colleges; by instruction in schools being conducted in the native Ianguage, and by the organization in the factories, state farms, machine and tractor stations and collective farms of free vocational, technical and agronomic training for the working people.

ARTICLE 122. Women in the U.S.S.R. are accorded equal rights with men in all spheres of economic, state, cultural, social and political life. The possibility of exercising these rights is ensured to women by granting them an equal right with men to work, payment for work, rest and leisure, social insurance and education, and by state protection of the interests of mother and child, prematernity and maternity leave with full pay, and the provision of a wide network of maternity homes, nurseries and kindergartens.

ARTICLE 123. Equality of rights of citizens of the U.S.S.R., irrespective of their nationality or race, in all spheres of economic, state, cultural, social and political life, is an indefeasible law. Any direct or indirect restriction of the rights of, or, conversely, any establishment of direct or indirect privileges for, citizens on account of their race or nationality, as well as any advocacy of racial or national exclusiveness or hatred and contempt, is punishable by law.

ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

ARTICLE 125. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system, the citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed by law:

freedom of speech;
freedom of the press;
freedom of assembly, including the holding of mass meetings;
reedom of street processions and demonstrations.

These civil rights are ensured by placing at the disposal of the working people and their organizations printing presses, stocks of paper, public buildings, the streets, communications facilities and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.
----------------------
1977 Version

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/1977toc.html


Chapter 7 is too long to post. And you can say these are not true all you want. It is still their Constitution. We are not talking about the Soviet Union, we are talking about Communism and this Constitution is a fine example of it.

 

i believe communism is sometimes seen as democracy is in america.... america claims to be the great democracy of the 21st century, but isnt a real democracy at all. it is a republic. we have people who vote for us, rather than voting ourselves. True communism in the ussr never existed either, i believe... that kinda requires sharing between individuals, like in a commune, instead of rationing by the government, like in a totalitarian state. anyway, i think most of the people arg... er... debating here know that.... just throwing it out there for those who dont.

 

Oh yes, and here's a question I forgot to ask, Warsaw.

If communism is so great, so perfect, why did so many people fight against it? Why did the Soviet Union fall apart?

 

No goverment system is free of these kind of threats, Shinryu. Even democracy has fallen because people fight against it. Dictatorships, revolutions, conquests, etc. Do you think they stopped when communism fell in Rusia? This world seems very peaceful right now, but in fact, many revolutions are taking place right now. So, I don't think this argument fits to disqualify communism or any other goverment system.

 

I know that no form of government is ever liked by 100% of the population. You can't please everyone. But the fact that there was a revolution and communism fell apart throughout the entire communist bloc, (In Eastern Europe) shows that there must have been extreme discontent. And since discontent shows imperfection...

Also notice that those in former communist nations have much lower living standards than those countries that were in NATO at the time.