Fwd: Tomita copyright/

To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: ndkent <ndkent at optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:56:39 -0400
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/


> Greetings,
> a couple of months ago, one of you good guys was in
> conversation with Tomita and quoted him saying he was surprised that
> anybody still listened to his 70's albums.

This may be coupled with the impression I got that his synth music isn't
incredibly popular in Japan.

> Given that they're now a tad hard to get hold of, what's the copyright
> situation with the 'deleted' albums? Is it held by the record company
> or Tomita?

It would be interesting to see the effect of instead of the standard
"I'd really like it if you could reissue album X" to request it phrased
in a question just like many of the people on this list are sending to
this list. "I'm told this is a very good album, how can I listen to it,
how can buy a copy on CD?"

> My own attitude also says that if anyone wants a copy of a computer
> program I wrote 10 years ago, that's been off-sale for 9 years and 6
> months and will never go on sale again.... "help yourself, I'm
> flattered. P.S. have you seen my _new_ stuff, which you can purchase
> from....".

I think the albums have been off sale since only last year. This might
be because they are revamping them for cheaper re-issue. I don't know
this for a fact, but I do know that this is a standard practice with
other artists with back catalogs. They withdraw the full price series.
Let the copies in shops sell out, come back with mid-line or budget
repackagings.

As for who owns what, we know BGM Japan just put out another best of
last year. I think there was a UK best of in '98 or something?? By the
way, Snowflakes came out in the U.S. this year, not 1999, so I'd think
these works are still BMG owned all over.

> It's an assumption that may be tempered by geography. Here in the UK
> Tomita hasn't readily been available in any of the "mainstream" stores
> for a few years - not in my experience, anyway.

Ben Ward must be buying anything good up

but seriously, one problem is the section. Sometimes he is with
Classical albums, sometimes he's wherever one would find say Tangerine
Dream, which could be electronic, new age, I don't know. I kind of
recall seeing some in the larger London shops in '98. Anyway, now with
the internet the cheap U.S. versions should still be fairly easy to
find. Its the albums that weren't part of the U.S. Surround series that
are tough, except for those annoying "Best Of" albums, annoying because
whenever I think I see something good, it just turns out to be yet
another best of. Like when someone has a Tomita import... of course its
an imported "Best of"

> Be aware that there are at least 3 different versions of this on CD.
> There's the original RCA, the RCA Dolby surround,

true, there is also the several Japanese pressings called "Claire de
Lune" which is the Japanese re-title, but for all intents and purposes
there are only 2 you could find new (assuming you aren't in japan or
hitting used sources). the Surround version which has a lot of silver on
it and the newer and improved "High Performance" version which says just
that real big. There are older CDs like Mike says but unless found used
they wouldn't be sitting around 10+ years.

> the HP release being the best, but none are what I
> would call spectacular.

I'd disagree, flawed, yes, but I was quite happy hearing "The Planets"
from CD, I for one thought it was better than my circa 1982 U.S. vinyl pressing.

For those who can't read between the lines. its obvious what the High
Preformance release was about. RCA knows that some kind of better than
16/44.1 standard CD format is around the corner. They are taking the
time now to make sure that new classical recordings are done in 24/96 at
least and more splashy vintage works are remastered to avoid the rush.
It obviously doesn't hurt that until then they can sell them as standard
CDs one more time.

> Is this the same Prelude to Afternoon of a Faun version that was on
Firebird?

yes

since its the same composer it is a good coupling. Reading between the
lines I might also guess that the successor to CD format is exciting to
music labels since they can sell them for about twice a regular CD
costs. They want to add some running length because classical reviewers
always criticize releases when the running length is skimpy (like "its a
full price reissue and only 42 minutes long" and subtract a star and a
half from the review)



> I say only certain territories because this is the possibly the reason that
> the 1991 reissues of almost his entire back catalogue happened in Japan
> only.

I won't disagree, but I'm not sure either. As you say, an artist signs a
contract and that covers a region of the world. Generally Japan has
always been a separate region for everyone.

As for the 1991 reissues, Japan always likes to do deep back catalogs.
look how much vintage Jazz stays in print in Japan. Numbers that need to
be pressed and sell are quite different. Its more like BMG U.S. did half
the catalog in surround as a test since tht format was big then then I
guess didn't go through with the other half


> Or it could of course have been non-Japanese record company
> disinterest. I think unless you're Madonna or George Michael, no-one is
> guaranteed a global release anymore (if they ever were.)

you make odd choices. I understand there was big legal trouble with
George Michael, which he didn't win but it made enough of a stink to get
the action he wanted. I guess what was going on was he was with Columbia
or something, which was bought out by Sony. He felt Sony was
disinterested but still had his contract so he sued them for millions
saying they were perventing him from having a hit by innaction. he
didn't win but got out of that contract due to the stink. Anyway he did
that image change with his new label, had a luke warm hit then
embarrassed himself in a few ways.

Madonna shrewdly got her own record label as part of a contract. This
usually bombs, but since she gets Prodigy and now Orbit (tie in to this
discussion!) on her label and avoids less talented vanity projects,
she's probably better off (even if Prodigy seems like a vintage act now).

> Tomita has pointed out that all the key record company relationships he had,
> especially with the folks at RCA Victor in New York (through which he found
> his global audience) are defunct, as these gentlemen are alas all either
> retired or dead.

yes, it ties in with George Michael. These companies are traded like
goods, someone else gets the whole thing and doesn't care about 100s
other artists, they just care about the handful that top the charts, and
wind up getting their careers derailed without doing anything wrong
aside from the big mistake of signing to a major when they should have
stayed indie (not that they don't get sold or more likely drop dead)

nick


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To: "Isao Tomita Mailing List" <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: "Mike B (digiboy)" <digiboy at erols.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:17:02 -0400
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

>Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

> Hi Mike,
> (so... there's more than a few of us AHr's on this list! ; ) )


> Is this the same Prelude to Afternoon of a Faun version that was on
>Firebird?

Yes, I think they just figured it would be nice to add it to the Debussy
package.


> I hope that the HP versions are better, because that's what I'm going to
>buy if they are. Are HP versions available for the first four albums, or just
>Snowflakes so far?

As far as i know, only Snowflakes is out on the HP series. I agree that
the sound quality on the Tomita CD's has been a disappointment tho each new
version is an improvement. I don't think the vinyl versions were very good
either. My suspicion is that the sound quality of the original master just
isn't very good. The other thing is, that to my ear, the mellotron often
comes off as sounding very lo-fi. I know that's the way a mellotron
sounds, kind of like complaining that a harpsichord sounds tinny.

> Changing channels here... Is anyone on this list "in contact" with Tomita?
>As I understand it, he only speaks Japanese... I just thought it would be
>neat to send an "email from a fan" to him. Through the years, I've had the
>pleasure of meeting or exchanging emails with a few of my all time favorite
>musicians, not Tomita though.


Ben? Nick?

Mike Berman
digiboy at erols.com


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To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: Benjamin Ward <bw at benward.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:16:05 +0000
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

>>
>> Most Record companies retain the Masters in order that
>> they can exploit them on behalf of the Artist and themselves.
>> Deleting an album doesn't mean the copyright is deleted!
>>
>
> I've no problem with the "length" of copyright, but was interested to
> know the copyright holder for Tomita's work (Tomita or the record
> company).
>

Tomita (theoretically) now once more owns the copyright in all his earlier
'Western' albums, although this applies only to certain territories. He was
as surprised by the 1999 release of 'Snowflakes Are Dancing' as I think most
of us were at the time.

I say only certain territories because this is the possibly the reason that
the 1991 reissues of almost his entire back catalogue happened in Japan
only. Or it could of course have been non-Japanese record company
disinterest. I think unless you're Madonna or George Michael, no-one is
guaranteed a global release anymore (if they ever were.)

Tomita has pointed out that all the key record company relationships he had,
especially with the folks at RCA Victor in New York (through which he found
his global audience) are defunct, as these gentlemen are alas all either
retired or dead.

> The re-
> release of another "greatest hits" album might well sink without trace.

Hopefully!

> I agree - if he can make money from them, then he should, but that
> doesn't seem to be happening for him. I work in the software industry
> and exactly the same principle applies - it's heartbreaking to put in
> massive effort, only to see it ripped off.

Wendy Carlos has some interesting things to say about digital
signatures/copyrighting of audio. It's somewhere on www.wendycarlos.com

> I was interested in Tomita's attitude, given his surprise that any of us
> still listen _and_ the fact he _isn't_ making money from it AFAIK.

He of course makes his money from new projects, and the royalties from the
70's and 80's will have been substantial. I think he himself felt that he
had moved on from analogue synthesis technology and the early stuff, until
the advent of the Bach Fantasy album. He'll still be getting royalties from
places where his CDs are still on sale (one presumes!)

I'd agree that the best thing that can be done in terms of getting the older
albums re-released is to petition your local BMG office, although you'll
have to battle through the hoards of indifferent twenty-something record
execs first (apologies to all twenty-something record execs of course! ;-)

Benjamin

> <Ducks behind sofa, knowing that most of the people on the list are
> professional musicians!>

Hey Ian! I've got ducks behind my sofa too! ;-)


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To: tomita at listbot.com
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: IXQY at aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:08:24 EDT
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

Hi Mike,
(so... there's more than a few of us AHr's on this list! ; ) )

In a message dated 7/25/00 7:32:20 AM Central Daylight Time,
digiboy at erols.com writes:

> FWIW:
> You might well be tempted to pick up Snowflakes the first place you find
> it since it will probably be cheap.
> Be aware that there are at least 3 different versions of this on CD.
> There's the original RCA, the RCA Dolby surround, and most recently, the
> RCA High Performance version. I think the first 2 are OOP but I still see
> them around, usually under $10. The third one just came out a few months
> ago but it's a mid-line usually going for $10-$13. They are progressively
> better in sound quality, the HP release being the best, but none are what I
> would call spectacular. The HP release also includes 1 extra 10 minute
> track; Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. I guess that and the sound
> would make it the best choice.

Is this the same Prelude to Afternoon of a Faun version that was on
Firebird?

Speaking of Tomita's CD releases.. When I bought the Pictures at an
Exhibition (a surround sound version) CD, I couldn't wait to hear it when I
got home. I have to say that I am a bit disappointed. I seem to recall the
album sounding MUCH better than this CD does. There's just no life in the
sound. Not like I remember anyway. I noticed that there are some parts that
actually disappear in the mix as they pan around, presumably due to the
surround sound encoding process. Is it just me and my aging ears?

I hope that the HP versions are better, because that's what I'm going to
buy if they are. Are HP versions available for the first four albums, or just
Snowflakes so far?

Changing channels here... Is anyone on this list "in contact" with Tomita?
As I understand it, he only speaks Japanese... I just thought it would be
neat to send an "email from a fan" to him. Through the years, I've had the
pleasure of meeting or exchanging emails with a few of my all time favorite
musicians, not Tomita though.

Thanks for the info,
Andrew Sanchez


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To: "Isao Tomita Mailing List" <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: "Mike B (digiboy)" <digiboy at erols.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:40:24 -0400
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

My next
>purchase willl be Snowflakes are Dancing and may buy that online if I don't
>find it here in town.

> Good luck in your search,
> Andrew Sanchez



FWIW:
You might well be tempted to pick up Snowflakes the first place you find
it since it will probably be cheap.
Be aware that there are at least 3 different versions of this on CD.
There's the original RCA, the RCA Dolby surround, and most recently, the
RCA High Performance version. I think the first 2 are OOP but I still see
them around, usually under $10. The third one just came out a few months
ago but it's a mid-line usually going for $10-$13. They are progressively
better in sound quality, the HP release being the best, but none are what I
would call spectacular. The HP release also includes 1 extra 10 minute
track; Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. I guess that and the sound
would make it the best choice.

Mike Berman
digiboy at erols.com


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To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: Ian Sharrock <ian at sharrock.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:10:22 +0100
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

In message <f6.12ee8ee.26aed45d at aol.com>, IXQY at aol.com writes
> Hello Ian,
> I'm curious about your comment that Tomita isn't receiving royalties from
>his early albums anymore... Did you read this somewhere, or was that just an
>assumption?

It's an assumption that may be tempered by geography. Here in the UK
Tomita hasn't readily been available in any of the "mainstream" stores
for a few years - not in my experience, anyway. I've tried asking, but
the answer generally comes back "who?", that the works are deleted,
unavailable, "we might be able to find an import at only X,000% mark-up"
or "we have this specialist music search that might find it if you pay
us £50 to look".

I may just be unlucky. You can certainly get the "more recent" (mainly
soundtrack) work imported, but I've had no joy getting (say) "Planets".

May assumption about royalties was along the lines of "If you don't sell
albums, you don't get royalties on sales you haven't made". I'm sure
that lots of sales would mean lots of royalties, but Mr. Tomita doesn't
seem to be selling that well here I must admit to assuming that
carried elsewhere.

> If it's the first few "well known" Tomita releases that you are interested
>in, they are available. In the last couple of weeks I've found most if not
>all of the early albums on CD at various online vendor sites. I was looking
>to buy Pictures at an Exhibition, but wound up finding it at a local Borders
>Books. I also found Kosmos there and bought it as well ($11.50 each). My next
>purchase willl be Snowflakes are Dancing and may buy that online if I don't
>find it here in town.

Interesting. I'll have a gander - any suggestions for vendor sites?
I'm not actually missing much myself, but as I've said, I now have
friends who are catching on by 'word of mouth' who can't buy the works
'locally'. I dislike copying CDs - it tends to impoverish the artist
and discourage new works.

Thinking about the last sentence.... maybe I should just run off a few
million Eminem CDs and hope
--
Ian Sharrock. Permission to send unsolicited commercial e-mail to this
host is explicitly *withdrawn*


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To: tomita at listbot.com
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: IXQY at aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:30:37 EDT
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

In a message dated 7/25/00 6:01:04 AM Central Daylight Time, ian at sharrock.org
writes:

> > It's the age old question of commerciality. If the Public
> > wants it the music will be re-released. If they don't, well..
>
> It's a matter of scale I suppose - he's not exactly in the public eye
> these days (was he ever "big" - I'm a bit too young to know!). The re-
> release of another "greatest hits" album might well sink without trace.
>
> I'm a terrible cynic I know, but I have doubts that he's be given a
> seriously large amount of promotion if the albums were re-released.
> Pity, because as I originally said, I've a number of friends who've been
> "turned" by the likes of William Orbit and have subsequently enjoyed the
> Tomita I've played to them - but then find they can't buy it :-(
>
> > In any event the Man sweated over these works and should
> > always be paid for that effort, and for what he's given to
> > each of us.
>
> I agree - if he can make money from them, then he should, but that
> doesn't seem to be happening for him. I work in the software industry
> and exactly the same principle applies - it's heartbreaking to put in
> massive effort, only to see it ripped off.
>
> My own attitude also says that if anyone wants a copy of a computer
> program I wrote 10 years ago, that's been off-sale for 9 years and 6
> months and will never go on sale again.... "help yourself, I'm
> flattered. P.S. have you seen my _new_ stuff, which you can purchase
> from....".
>
> I was interested in Tomita's attitude, given his surprise that any of us
> still listen _and_ the fact he _isn't_ making money from it AFAIK.
>
> If there was a mechanism where I could download "Planets" and he got the
> royalties, I'd be at the front of the queue
>
> My post was all about permission - would Tomita permit this, given he's
> not making any personal gain anyway. You'll notice that I didn't even
> _think_ about asking the record company ;-)
>
> It would be all too easy to just suggest that everyone MP3s whatever
> they own and heads for Napster - it's not stunningly likely that the
> record company is going to come out all guns blazing. Not when there
> are bigger fish to fry, anyway :-(
>
> <Ducks behind sofa, knowing that most of the people on the list are
> professional musicians!>

Hello Ian,
I'm curious about your comment that Tomita isn't receiving royalties from
his early albums anymore... Did you read this somewhere, or was that just an
assumption?

If it's the first few "well known" Tomita releases that you are interested
in, they are available. In the last couple of weeks I've found most if not
all of the early albums on CD at various online vendor sites. I was looking
to buy Pictures at an Exhibition, but wound up finding it at a local Borders
Books. I also found Kosmos there and bought it as well ($11.50 each). My next
purchase willl be Snowflakes are Dancing and may buy that online if I don't
find it here in town.

Good luck in your search,
Andrew Sanchez


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To: Isao Tomita Mailing List <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: Ian Sharrock <ian at sharrock.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:59:35 +0100
Delivered-To: mailing list tomita at listbot.com
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Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

In message <CB9B80314082D31182BC00508B5E1A4E041F2D at shaya11e.haya.gb.eur.
emigrp.com>, Bassett, David <BassettD at emigroup.com> writes
>Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

> In the UK Copyright lasts:-

> literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works
> the life of the author + 70 years

> for Performers, record and film producers 50 years after the
> work is lawfully made or if the work is published during that
> 50 year period, 50 years after publication.

> Most Record companies retain the Masters in order that
> they can exploit them on behalf of the Artist and themselves.
> Deleting an album doesn't mean the copyright is deleted!


I've no problem with the "length" of copyright, but was interested to
know the copyright holder for Tomita's work (Tomita or the record
company).

> It's the age old question of commerciality. If the Public
> wants it the music will be re-released. If they don't, well..

It's a matter of scale I suppose - he's not exactly in the public eye
these days (was he ever "big" - I'm a bit too young to know!). The re-
release of another "greatest hits" album might well sink without trace.

I'm a terrible cynic I know, but I have doubts that he's be given a
seriously large amount of promotion if the albums were re-released.
Pity, because as I originally said, I've a number of friends who've been
"turned" by the likes of William Orbit and have subsequently enjoyed the
Tomita I've played to them - but then find they can't buy it :-(

> In any event the Man sweated over these works and should
> always be paid for that effort, and for what he's given to
> each of us.

I agree - if he can make money from them, then he should, but that
doesn't seem to be happening for him. I work in the software industry
and exactly the same principle applies - it's heartbreaking to put in
massive effort, only to see it ripped off.

My own attitude also says that if anyone wants a copy of a computer
program I wrote 10 years ago, that's been off-sale for 9 years and 6
months and will never go on sale again.... "help yourself, I'm
flattered. P.S. have you seen my _new_ stuff, which you can purchase
from....".

I was interested in Tomita's attitude, given his surprise that any of us
still listen _and_ the fact he _isn't_ making money from it AFAIK.

If there was a mechanism where I could download "Planets" and he got the
royalties, I'd be at the front of the queue

My post was all about permission - would Tomita permit this, given he's
not making any personal gain anyway. You'll notice that I didn't even
_think_ about asking the record company ;-)

It would be all too easy to just suggest that everyone MP3s whatever
they own and heads for Napster - it's not stunningly likely that the
record company is going to come out all guns blazing. Not when there
are bigger fish to fry, anyway :-(

<Ducks behind sofa, knowing that most of the people on the list are
professional musicians!>

Cheers,
Ian


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To: "'Isao Tomita Mailing List'" <tomita at listbot.com>
Subject: RE: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?
From: "Bassett, David" <BassettD at emigroup.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:06:28 +0100
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Delivery-date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:41 +0100
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Reply-To: "Isao Tomita Mailing List" <tomita at listbot.com>


Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/

In the UK Copyright lasts:-

literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works
the life of the author + 70 years

for Performers, record and film producers 50 years after the
work is lawfully made or if the work is published during that
50 year period, 50 years after publication.

Most Record companies retain the Masters in order that
they can exploit them on behalf of the Artist and themselves.
Deleting an album doesn't mean the copyright is deleted!
It's the age old question of commerciality. If the Public
wants it the music will be re-released. If they don't, well..
In any event the Man sweated over these works and should
always be paid for that effort, and for what he's given to
each of us.

Dave Bassett


-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Sharrock [mailto:ian at sharrock.org]
Sent: 25 July 2000 10:42
To: Isao Tomita Mailing List
Subject: Tomita copyright/"sharing" unavailable material?


Isao Tomita Mailing List - http://listen.to/tomita/


Greetings,
a couple of months ago, one of you good guys was in
conversation with Tomita and quoted him saying he was surprised that
anybody still listened to his 70's albums.

Given that they're now a tad hard to get hold of, what's the copyright
situation with the 'deleted' albums? Is it held by the record company
or Tomita?

If it's Tomita, then a question springs to mind: would he grant
permission to MP3 and share his (early) music, given that you can't buy
it and he's obviously receiving no financial reward from it?

A lot of my pleasure comes from physically owning a given album/cd but
it's frustrating to see other works that I can't find (or afford), or
seeing "where can I find..." requests here on the list. I'm also
finding that since William Orbit appeared in the UK, quite a few of my
friends have become interested in Tomita's work, but can't buy it
anywhere!

I'm _NOT_ suggesting that anything which is (or could become)
commercially available should "do a Napster", but obviously it would be
nice just to hear the music that (to date) I've been unable to (as long
as the man himself agrees and isn't missing out).

Thoughts, anyone?

Ian
--
Ian Sharrock. Permission to send unsolicited commercial e-mail to this
host is explicitly *withdrawn*


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