Full Metal Alchemist Human Transmutation

Do you think it's possible? I got into a four hour discussion about this, and I want to hear your views.

We could find out what a soul REALLY is...

 

Well, I was taking it a different way.

Imagine:
So, someone dies, right? But you have their brain, their body, just, without life.

If you could re-create a body, which is EASY nowadays, and give it the same everything... would it be the same person?

Al and Ed's attempt could just be a magical shortcut with recipes to all that?

 

I personally think its impossible. I'll quote Wolfwood from Trigun on this....

"Not only are are powers limited, but we sometimes are driven to become the devil himself"
-Nicholas D. Wolfood, Trigun

You just cant play god. He doesent allow you to make life through alchemy.



KaiyonTormentor

 

The Three Parts of Human, as stated by FMA

Body, Soul, Mind.

Body = Physical Form
Body + Soul = A human with irrepairable naivete, what people would call to having a big heart. Very easily influenced.
Body + Mind = Zombie
Soul = Spiritual Form, only seen alone in the alternate planes.
Soul + Mind = A soul with sentience, somewhat like the imps in the gates.
Mind = Sentience, it's an existance, not any 'form'.
Body + Soul + Mind = An actual person.

 

Yeah. So human transmutation is basically always going to be bringing a Zombie to life! We may bring back the body and mind, but without a soul its useless to get the thing you want.


KaiyonTormentor

 

I also believe that, yeah, technology is changing and so are our advances in science and what new discoveries we will make in the future, but we have tried cloning-even though now most countries have band it- anyways the big idea is that it is true- you cannot play God. And look what happened to that sheep Dolly? Yes, the scientists claimed that it had nothing to do with cloning, but it still human transmutation and cloning and those sorts, probably won't happen.

 

This is so very interesting! From an analytical point of view, of course.

Allow me to share... the catholic view, as explained by Theresa of Avila, is that the mind = the soul. She said, that she didn't know why, but her superior told her, that the soul resided in the head (that would be the brain, interesting comment assumming that it came from a 16th century nun).

Also, she tells us that the soul has 3 "powers": Imagination or "thought", understanding (that would be reasoning), and will. If the soul is more than these three powers, she doesn't say. But she says that the thought attracts the will.

Another thing to add is that death, from the catholic perspective, is the final separation between the body and the soul. Miracles have happened (not only in the bible, but there are "documented" feats of saints regarding the resurrection of the dead, and some of these saints (in very, VERY FEW occasions) have come to life at determinate moments.

Finally, catholicism does not believe in reincarnation (well, that would put away the attaching of souls, heh), but that the soul is attached permanently to the body - we are not spirits entrapped in a body, we are incarnated spirits, we are flesh and soul at the same time. This is what makes us human.

From this point of view, (going back to the anime), to resurrect the person you would only have to restore the body. So repairing the cells and having a functional body would suffice.

This is what gets me startled... knowing the genetical structure of the cell (or the individual, for that matter), reconstructing the body would start by reconstructing the bones, the nerves, muscles, blood vessels, the rest of the organs, and finally the skin. The memories in the brain are not "software", but they're imprinted in the brain's structure itself - i.e. hardwired. Everytime we acquire a memory, the brain restructures itself, making new connections (and possibly discarding old) to keep the information.

In the same way, to recover Ed's arm, we could take a sample from his bone tissue, transmute-clone the bones, then the muscles / nerves, and finally attach the existing arm to his body. Perhaps alchemy could be the energy that would nurture the cells for the attachment. (Man, this would be very interesting, getting a 21th century genetist into the FMA world).

On the other hand, I wonder if current scientists are trying to do what the alchemists in the series did: Transmuting humans. Cloning humans is one such thing... and it really creeps me out.

 

hmm... cloning never can create a person as you knew them.... they would never be the same. A clone of Hitler would not be the same unless the clone could some how experience the same events as Hitler did. We have no way to make memories. Beside, it wouldn't be the same as bringing some one back. Cells deteriorate too fast for us to create a creature like Frankenstein did. The brain in particularly deteriorates quickly. No brain, no memories, not the same person.
One thing that bothers me about FMA is that they get energy from no where.... "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed" and yet they have enough energy to not only rearrange molecules, but (if you look at the alchemic circle) also give off light. Their explanations does not fit... it would be a spoiler if anyone told you the explanation.

:anger2: grr.... what is it with people thinking cloning is easy. As far as I know there haven't been any scientifically proven human clones... just crap from the media and some crack pots who make cloning a pseudo science. They haven't given us proof or evidence to substantiate their claims of cloned humans. Why would you want to clone some one any way? They would look the same, perhaps, but why would you want to talk about memories to some one who never experience them... Oh remember the time we... oh wait you didn't do that the original did.
Heh the easiest thing I think you could make is a brain dead zombie... using electricity to make the muscles move, but even that would take a lot of work and a good knowledge of anatomy and how muscles work. Just make a robot instead; it would probably be easier and much more feasible.

Only in a world of magic and miracle could you bring back the dead.

In other words NO! I do not think it is possible to bring back the dead...

 

This is getting messed up so I'm going to explain how true cloning works and what it makes.

Step 1: Take the egg out of the female specimen of the species you want to clone.

Step 2: Take DNA out of the egg and insert DNA of what you want to be cloned.

Step 3: Insert egg back into female specimen of correct species.

Step 4: Apply electric charges to egg to begin cell activity.

Step 5: The egg grows and develops like any egg that was fertilized by sperm.

What you get is an organism with the exact same DNA of the organism that you cloned. By no means that this organism will look, think, or behave like the organism being cloned. The clone operates like any normal organism of its species. The clone does not have the memories of the cloned organism.

Cloning is easy to do. And it has been done. Look! I'm in Louisiana! We're all a bunch of stupid southerners down here! And in New Orleans there are (or at least were due to Hurricane Katrina) three clones of a cat in a zoo there! Human cloning is possible, but it's illegal to clone humans because the scientific community doesn't allow it.

And now for human transmutation. It should be possible. I don't see why it wouldn't be. I mean the human body is comprised of particles so by using alchemy you can get the same particles to arrange in the specific order to create cells which will create tissues which will make organs which make organ systems which make organisms. (Darn you, science class!) Although it will be complicated, you can make a human body this way. But then you don't have a soul for the body which means the body will have the knowledge of a baby that was just born half a second ago. What human transmutation is good for is something like healing your wounds. Or you could transmute a new arm and leg for yourself. Or you could transmute a body for your younger brother.

Ok, I'm tired. I'm done for the day..... :dizzy2:

 

Alchemy

Definition: Several definitions exist. Originally, alchemy was an ancient tradition of sacred chemistry used to discern the spiritual and temporal nature of reality, its structure, laws, and functions.
Source 1

Alchemy is an early protoscientific practice combining elements of chemistry, physics, astrology, art, semiotics, metallurgy, medicine, and mysticism. These practices were usually used outside of what is now known as the scientific method, however, alchemy can be regarded as the precursor of the modern science of chemistry prior to the formulation of the scientific method.

The most well known goal of alchemy was the transmutation of any metal into either gold or silver. Alchemists also tried to create a "Panacea", a remedy that supposedly would cure all diseases and prolong life indefinitely. The "Philosopher's stone" was believed to be a key ingredient in these goals. This mythical substance was hypothesized to have the ability to do both. A third goal of many alchemists was creating human life.

Over time, the goals of alchemy were totally reinterpreted by many readers of the subject. Many readers came to believe that these goals of alchemy were really metaphors for a spiritual transformation of the self. They then wrote manuals that reinterpreted alchemy as a spiritual practice. For this reason, many alchemy manuals describe the "Philosopher's Stone" as a gift that every man potentially has unto himself, the "Transmutation" as the process that transform the alchemist by studying sciences, and the "Panacea" as the true meaning of love and science. These writers felt that when reading a book on alchemy, the reader must read "over" the words to figure out the way to follow — decoding the secret text to discover its true meaning. This approach remains common to adherents of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism, who often employ gematria and notariqon to expand their understanding of their religious texts, especially the Torah.
Source 2

al•che•my Pronunciation (lk-m)
n.
1. A medieval chemical philosophy having as its asserted aims the transmutation of base metals into gold, the discovery of the panacea, and the preparation of the elixir of longevity.
2. A seemingly magical power or process of transmuting: "He wondered by what alchemy it was changed, so that what sickened him one hour, maddened him with hunger the next" Marjorie K. Rawlings.
[Middle English alkamie, from Old French alquemie, from Medieval Latin alchymia, from Arabic al-kmiy' : al-, the + kmiy', chemistry (from Late Greek khmeia, khumeia, perhaps from Greek Khmia, Egypt).]
source 3

Okay not the best of sources...

How many times did they have to try before they got those three clones? How many times did they try to make dolly before they actually succeeded?
Why don't we clone endangered animals? Could we take extinct animals and "clone" them, like say they did in Jurassic park? How many cloned animals exist in the world? Hmm... Maybe I should Google it. Okay so theoretically the process is easy as pie.... with less steps even. Why don't the smart people of the world go oh lets clone some mountain gorillas and some okapis and some of those other critically endangered animals? It's easier to clone plants... heck the simple farmer can do that. I can do that. It cost less money, and you don't have to have a host. You make it sound like a stroll in the park.

But enough about cloning... since it makes new life instead of bringing back old.

emphasis should be on complicated.
You would have to know Chemistry and molecular bonds and a lot of other science. Oh and you would want to have a good understanding of anatomy... particularly how stuff attaches and how muscles work. *shudders* Oh how it would hurt if your muscles weren't balanced.... *SNAP* oops I think you need a new bone.... *evil grin* Hey if you can do it fine, have fun with that. I think it would be a team effort... just so long as too many cooks don't ruin the stew. And wow the bill would be billions.
Oh I forgot. A better understanding of the human Genome would be advised...

atoms, molecules, DNA & organelles, cells, tissues, muscles, organs, organ systems, organism... hmm... you can do a person; I'll stick to a bacteria thank you. oh and don't mess up the DNA or you might get cancer... or a dead cell.

As to healing your wounds... stem cells would be much more efficient... but alas the idea is taboo in most of this nation. Can't go around hurting potential life now can we...

Something is illegal because the government makes it, not because of the scientific community. The cloning of humans is a scientific taboo much like genetically modifing humans to create super humans. Generally a respected scientist wouldn’t dip their hands in human cloning. The scientific community has standards and if you go outside those standards the you loose credibility and respectability, both of which are important if you want to get published by scientific journals and have your work looked at.
"Humanity" draws the lines, the government just sets them in stone.

And yes parts of my earlier post are not well worded. have fun.

 

Where are you getting this information? We still aren't able to piece together people from other people (organ transplants and such) entirely sucessfully. There are always complications.

We can't clone tissue wholely well either. You can't just make a person.

And you are talking about things we don't even understand physically yet on a spiritual "soul" level. Scientists don't even know how the brain works. They don't claim to understand how the brain works. It's like telling a preschooler to go make a spaceship. Just so EASY nowadays.

As to whether or not replicating the physical body will recreate the personality, I think not. It is not out physical features that make us act how we do. It is our life experiences. Two identical twins still have unique personalities or 'souls' if that's what you want to call it.

Edit: And yes, I am aware that there have been "successful" clonings. But all those animals had complications, either with illnesses or a warped anatomical structure. No cloning has ever been 100% successful.