Debate Hurricane Katrina

Okay we havent had a good debate in a long time and i found that this was perfect causeim am upmost upset with are society for this... so:

Do you think people have the right to complain about gas prices and refuse aiding the Hurricane victims b/c they have to spend more money on gas b/c of the storm?

I am upmost apalled by the amount of people who complain about gas when there are people who lost ove ones all their material possessions and are being raped, murdered, and looted b/c of this inccident... i am sooooo upset with the way we reacted to this as a group... and to think of it, what would happen if there was a mass missle crisis and paarts of the US had been attacked and that caused gas prices to soar above $10 US would you worry about your fellow countrymen or just complain about gas prices yet again?

 

We can't all focus on everything. My local gas station now has the regular gas for $3.00 a gallon. That's a lot. Prices here on the US keep on rising, but the paychecks don't. We don't have money to spare here, and it definetly doesn't grow on trees.

However, Publix (company I work in) is working with United Way. We had a meeting on saturday, and they asked Publix for donations. They can subtract a certain amount from our paychecks, and whatever amount of money Publix makes, United Way will match dollar for dollar. So I guess that's one way to help.

I give out a helping hand whenever I can, but we can't all help everyone everytime unfortunately.

-Seishin

 

Same can be said for the majority of the people living in africa.. What about them.. Where is the so called help they need.. Now that America is feeling what its like to have a third world type disaster on there hands its ok to bash people who complain about gas..

Like i Said before the average joe can only do and give so much.. You know how many people around the world live paycheck to paycheck.. They have every right to complain about the gas because now they cant afford to work. They they might loose their homes because they cant make a payment on their house..
Its the billionairs, the oil companies , the Stars with there multy million dollar homes who have the ability to make the bigest differences with these sort of situations.. BUT NO God forbid they loose some money themselves.. make the working class pay for the cleanup they say.. ..

And you have to remember that when gas goes up EVERYTHING else goes up.. except how much people make..

 

The basis of Capitolism, the economic system we pride ourselves on, is "every man for himself, survival of the fittest." (source: A Beautiful Mind (I know, it's a movie, but the concept is still true.)) If enough people have a problem with this, that is the only time things will truly change.

 

Its not the fact that im trying to forget or bypass othr countries issues or such things but to bash your own countrymen is wrong...plus you dont see us going and bashing on Africa b/c of thier problems but we offer some aid when we can...no offense but as each country we have to look towards our needs first. Not saying anything... but i always give donatiosn when i can...but im only 16 and i can only give so much...but the topic i was discussing was the fact that we disregard our own country even more so at times then other countries thats all im trying to put across....

 

no thats just being selfish. gas prises were riseing anyway, it would have happened eventually but now they have something to blame it on.

i agree. what the hell is wrong with people these days. this has happened and people are going out raping each other. it's disgraceful.

it sucks to know that our country would run to someone else aid faster than the would ours.

 

I will not complain if the person who lives from paycheck to paycheck can not donate I can understand..... but there are people where I live that drive hummers around.... and at least one of them still is. There is this area of town where the houses are all worth hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions. Now if one of those people said they couldn't afford to help then I would be angry. I can give so I will. I can not say that for other people though. I am tired of all the people complaining of gas prices. The refineries and oil rigs are out of commision for right now. The sooner we help people the sooner they can work on fixing it. The sooner it is fixed the sooner people can return to their jobs and earn money. Once they start earning money they can further work on helping others. Helping people means we can sooner get back on the road of economic recovery.

 

First off gas is rising because Katrina destroyed the third largest supplier. People are complaining because of how quickly it jumped up. It went up almost a buck per gallon some places over a buck. Do they have the right to complain? YES. Well does it do any good? NO. Gas would have gone up but it wouldn't have jumped up this much that is what they are complaining about. Think about taking of 15-20 bucks every week from a fixed income going to something you really don’t want it too.

Some people live off of fixed incomes barely making it from paycheck to paycheck. I am appalled at anyone who would we angry at them for living. If you want them to donate you would be taking food away from their family. Is anyone really prepared to go there?

The people who can help should but unfortunately it is their choice. Not every movie star, rock star, or etc has lived a fairy tale life where they can afford to give to a worthy fund. They may have more money but what if their 15 minutes if fame is over with then what? More people make the more they spend at least that is how I see it.

I think it is sad that all those crimes are happening when help is needed. It could stop some people from helping. It worse that no one is trying to stop it. I am not sure of all the details of the crimes but wasn’t someone raped in the refuge? Where are the good citizens at? Is it truly better to just look away? It is sad to say it is human nature. I honestly believe that we will make our selves become extinct. If we only care about our selves yes then we are all doomed to die.

I don’t know what I would have done if I have seen this. As long as there wasn’t a weapon involved I probably would have done something. I am very vocal. People who know me know this. I wouldn’t stand back unless I had no choice. The stealing is horrible too. I don’t trust anyone. When my area was flooded you should have seen how bad I was. I lived for a few weeks with a lot of people. It wasn’t that great and I honestly hate seeing people like this. They don’t know when they can move back but at least they are still alive. Things are getting stolen but I think the most valuable thing you have is your life. And it is horrible someone was murdered.

Anyone can voice to help but don’t get angry if they can’t.

 

"Bah!" i say.
aim your resentment towards the people commiting the rape and murder, not everyone else for complaining about oil prices. i also have little pity for those people who had too much arrogance to evacuate.

we excepted 3rd world countries to be grateful for our aid in the christmas tsunami, yet it pales in comparison to the aid Katrina victims are getting. we took so much pride in the aid we gave these asian countries, yet we mock all that we do for Katrina victims. the asian tsunami was a hell of a lot worse, but it didn't degenerate into this sort of chaos and lawlessness. is the problem here is the american pride that says 'we expect better'?

 

unfortunatly money rules the world and oil=money so it's dificult to judge people for their behaviour (of course i'm not talking about those who raped and killed and loted etc. those should be punished) but the ones complaining let them are for sure those who can't afford the the new prices of oil and if they can't afford them they can't afford to help much either so the help should come from those who can help.
i just take off my hat to those that help and care for others.

by the way. i couldn't see it in my pc but maybe you can.
http://maps.google.com/maps

in this page you can zoom in and out and see images by satelite of some places in the world. just search by new orleans and click on the button saying KATRINA in red and watch.

 

dont take this the wrong way when i say this because i really do care and feel for the people affected by Katrina, but the asian tsunamis were so much worse in terms of the loss of life and yet when they happened, people didnt seem to be bothered AS much as when Katrina hit. It makes me wonder if its because of the fact that it happened at home to our "own" people or because of the gas prices. i cant decide. anyway to contribute to the question in this thread, i say people dont have the right to complain. we're living in luxury if u think about it but because we're all self centered and spoiled with the goods and riches of our 'normal' society, we figure its not fair to spend more on gas. people are just too busy with their lives to contribute to those less fortunate than themselves. it should not have taken this long to send help to the Katrina victums and its not all the govts. fault either

im not bitter i just hate society cheers ^_^

 

People are going to find something to complain about no matter how bad others have got it.

So Cherrygirl, you hate society too eh? Call me <3

 

Piss and Moan Pt. 1

Ah, the longwinded one comes. This is perhaps my longest post ever. I suppose that since this is a debate I need to pick one side over the other. Do people have the right to complain about Gas prices and deny giving money to people hurt by Katrina because they need to spend their cash on gas?

That’s an interesting question. In all sense and sensibilities people earn their own money and have all the right in the world to spend it however they wish- it is their money, right? And in the same vein, people have the right to say whatever they want- so in fact they DO have a right to complain about gas and pin it on Katrina.

So legally, they have every right to whine about gas and use it as an excuse not to give to the relief funds.

But that’s not the issue most people seem to be addressing. This isn’t a legal matter, it’s a moral issue, and unlike the black and white of the law, this issue is shaded in more shades of gray than most can even count.

To address this one should sit back and examine everything from beginning to where we are now. For most people it’s a pain in the ass trying to think back to last Thursday, I understand, just bear with a second.

For the past seven months I have been out to sea on the USS Carl Vinson doing figure eights in the Persian gulf, launching and receiving aircraft. Gas prices over there were pretty nice- I think the most I saw was about 3.25 Durhams (roughly a dollar or so US). Imagine that? When we pulled out of San Diego at the beginning of the year I noticed Gas prices were hovering around the $2.25 margin. When we pulled back in a few weeks ago we were ‘Blessed’ with finding that things in our own country had gone from bad to worse- Bratz now had their own music album, Missy Elliot had lost some weight and was considered to be one of the sexiest woman around, Date my Mom: the gay edition had taken over MTV (boy was that shocked the hell out of us), and gas prices had shot up to a little over $2.50 a gallon.

Gas prices were a little over $2.50 a gallon… this was a few weeks BEFORE the hurricane hit Louisiana.

$2.50!! Can anyone remember back a few years ago when Gas still hovered at 99 cents per gallon? 99 cents!!

People were complaining before the storm, but it wasn’t so much towards gas prices as it was towards whatever the media had latched onto. (I think it was about that woman on life support in Florida.)

Then Katrina hits, raises hell like only a Cat 4 Hurricane can, and next thing we know gas is over three dollars a gallon. It is now cheaper to Make our own gas out of corn than it is to get it pumped. Enter our current situation.

Does anyone else other than me realize how lucky we have been with regards to gas prices? For years gas has been hovering right around a dollar to $1.50 per gallon, completely ignoring the rules of inflation. I’m sure some of the older guys can relate with this. Prices have always been relatively low, for as far back as I can remember, and according to the trends, even longer. The inflation effect we should have been seeing over the past twenty- thirty years has been missing. Now, over the course of the last few years gas prices have been shooting upwards- Meeting that price on the inflation curve where it should be. In essence we are paying what we’re supposed to be paying, given our economy and inflation. Rather than prices slowly climbing over the years they simply shot dramatically up over the past couple of years. Food for thought.

So now that we’re paying what we should be paying for gas people are angry and complaining, blaming the sudden jump in prices (only a lousy fifty or so cents per gal) on Katrina and refusing to donate. That’s the American spirit for you, ya? What happened to the pride we had with one another during 9/11? One nation, one people, right?

Maybe it’s because we don’t have the charismatic leadership for Katrina that 9/11 had. NYC had Rudy Giuliani and his compassionate yet determined stance on getting New York back to where it should have been. He didn’t back down, and gave the people of New York City, and the rest of our nation for that matter, words of wisdom and hope, and then fulfilled those words with action. He was a natural leader that the courage of an entire nation stemmed from.

What did Katrina have? A Mayor who is simply cries about being too overwhelmed to be of any real help, and a governor whose ‘inspiring’ words regarding “What we’re going to do with what happened in New Orleans” was simply “Pray.”

Pray? Rudy Giuliani she is not. That’s not what ya tell an entire state torn by devastation in their time of need. All the prayer in the world wont help feed, clothe, shelter, ect all those people down there. Prayer is worthless without action. For those religious guys and gals out there I’m sure you’ll agree that “God does not help those who do not help themselves.” I’m sure you’ve all heard the story about the man sitting on top of his house during a flood. Three times people in boats come and offer him a ride to safety, and three times the man declines stating “God will save me.” The flood waters rise so high that eventually the man drowns. When he gets to heaven he asks God “I’ve been faithful to you my whole life. Why didn’t you save me?” to which God replies “I tried, three times.”

Pray… Huh. With impotent leadership like that it’s no wonder we turn such a scornful eye towards those down there.

Tanuki brought up an excellent point earlier.

Since when did we care more for other countries and other people than our own? I can think of several reasons why some people might believe so. The biggest being the Tsunami was caused by an earthquake, a relatively rapid and dynamically occurring event with little to no forewarning. Katrina had become a Class 5 before even touching land. We knew about her way ahead of time and yet people still remained behind. To the average layman that is called stupidity. When it’s get the hell out of the way of the storm or die, and you stay you get what ya deserve, right?

However… not everyone could get out. By far a vast majority really did get the hell outta Dodge, and of those that were left behind, only a few stayed out of sheer stupidity. Most simply couldn’t leave.

This brings up an excellent point. Do people only live paycheck to paycheck everywhere else in the US except New Orleans? Did the people of N.O. live in an area of economic prosperity where everyone had a car and gas was ridiculously low despite the rest of the country?

Of course not. In fact most of those who tried to weather the storm didn’t even have vehicles to speak of, or they were in a state where they were not able to drive them. How were they supposed to get out? Sure they had a few days warning, so were they supposed to run? The average person travels at about 3 mph, which means on average they’d travel maybe 30 miles per day. That’s not loaded down with anything… and assuming they could get food and water in the wild. That’ll still only put them 120 miles out at best, and they’re still in the path of the storm. So it would make sense that the next best thing they could do would be to simply huddle up behind walls and wait it out. It’s not stupidity (at least not all of them), it’s simply a lack of means of escaping.

The second reason I can see why people look down on N.O. is because of what they see in the news- riots, looting, raping, pillaging, famine, death, pestilence, plague, four horseman kind of stuff. When you hear reports of retards shooting at the rescue and supply aircraft you can’t help but shake your head and think “To hell with those guys, if they don’t want our help then forget ‘em!”

But we have to remember that all we ever hear about on the news are the people who are making the loudest noise. The hundreds of thousands sitting around in the shelters all day, thankful for all the help and support don’t make the news quite as well as the dumb bastards unloading their weapons at rescue helos. Do we see the refugees trying to survive? Sure. But do how much more do we hear about the guys looting and stealing, ect? All the time, every day. The News latches onto stories like that like a half starved leach onto your exposed leg. People watch it and are fascinated by it. They don’t feel the guilt watching retards do stupid things that they feel when they see people who are barely lucky to be alive asking for money. I suppose that is why we tune out the necessary for the exciting.

 

Piss and Moan Pt. 2

Btw, I still find it funny that people were going out of their way to loot Microwaves and Plasma Screen TVs after the storm. They could have stolen something useful like money, food, water, portable heatlamps or generators, (hell, clothes for their children!!) but instead they ripped off Circuit City. I say good job, you four-star citizen. Go home and plug that new 64” TV into the wall outlet that hasn’t worked since the power lines were blown away and starve to death. Darwinism at its finest.

Forgive me for being heartless, but I feel it’s the saddest thing in the world watching those refugees get in front of the camera and complain about their condition. Complaining about how hot it is, about how bad the food is, about how their things are gone.

God bless you, man. That’s exactly the point. Not one of those guys got on T.V. and said “I thank God (or even I’m thankful) just for being alive.” They just SURVIVED a Cat 4 Hurricane they are walking away with the most important possession: their lives. How can they stand up in front of the T.V. cameras and moan and groan about the things they don’t have, about the quality of the things they are having donated to them. Yes, they lost everything, but eventually we all lose everything we possess. Life isn’t about the things we’ve lost, it’s about the things we still have.

I can’t blame people for turning a blind eye to Katrina Victims. I can never recall seeing one stand up and say “Thank you for the food we’re receiving, the clothes we got, the water we drink. Thank you, you who has no obligation to us at all, for helping a complete and total stranger.” All we hear is the food is bad, the shelters are hot and crowded, they lost everything they owned.

You can still turn on the T.V. today and watch news stories about survivors who have lost ones they’ve loved. About men, women and children who have the some of the most important people in their lives ripped from their arms and taken away by the waters. I remember hearing one story about a man, weeping in front of the camera, describing his last moments with his wife as the flood waters came in. He tells us how he was losing his grip on her, almost losing his grip on his child. He tells us how she looked to him and simply said, “It’s going to be ok.” before the wind and water swept her away forever.

I can bet anyone here that he and his child have not made one single complaint about the help they’re receiving. About the donations, and the quality of life. They still have their lives. They have an idea of what it means to truly lose everything. Sure enough his wife, that child’s mother, knows well enough about loss.

Once more the same rule about how we only hear the noisiest people applies. I suppose hearing white trash, and homeless black folk complain gives a large majority of people their own personal satisfaction, because enough watch it to warrant the news always running the same, damn loops over and over again. That’s all we ever hear about, ne? The complaints, never the gratitude.

And we wonder why people turn such a scornful eye on the victims.

There are people out there who care. I’m not trying to say that no one in the US gives two damns about the going’s on in Bayou City. As much as it pains me to say it (as anti-Navy as I am) even the armed forces are lending their hands to this effort. We’re putting the exact same effort for those hurt by Katrina as those who were struck down by the tsunami. The Aircraft Carrier USS Abraham Lincoln and her strike group was there in Western Pacific, helping anyway they could. Us on board the Carl Vinson nearly joined their efforts as well, but got orders to launch planes in the Gulf instead. Now the USS Harry S. Truman and her strike group are down there in the Gulf of Mexico lending just as much aid and support as the Lincoln did over seas.

Heh, let me tell you, none of her sailors really want to be down there- being out at sea is god awful miserable- but they know that what they’re doing is for a good cause (and that like it or not their orders say stay and help), just like the boys and girls on the Lincoln.

What’s interesting about all of this is that Congress seemed to be ridiculously slow issuing all the money for the relief efforts. Here’s some more food for thought – When that woman in Florida was going to be taken off her feeding tube it took Congress about to day to get together and reach a decision about her. For Hurricane Katrina it took them FIVE days to get only a few members together to vote on the bill. Five days…

Then I must pose this question- who’s fault is it? Is it ours for seeing all that we have seen on the news and basing our entire opinions, our entire lives, around those facts completely throwing common sense and the obvious out the window? Is it the fault of all the celebs and their useless campaigning for fundraising when in fact they donate the least percentage of their paychecks out of any of us? Is it because we’re not old enough to do anything more about it?

It’s all our fault. It’s the rich man’s fault, it’s the poor man’s fault. It’s the young man’s fault, it the old man’s fault. It’s the white man’s fault, and it’s the black man’s fault. It’s the fault of those who weren’t touched by the storm, it’s the fault of the victims. Age, race, creed, religion, victims or not, it does not make any difference. We are all at fault. Prejudging, taking what we see on TV as fact, ignoring the little voice telling us we can do more if we wanted to, making up excuses like high gas prices. There isn’t one of us who not the part of the problem, and the core of this debate.

It doesn’t matter how much money we have, or where we live, what cars we drive we all could have done more to help those who need it. Most of us did, even if only a little. A lot of little things can amount to an incredibly big thing, and it shows with all the support they are receiving. But we all could have done a little more.

To say that people budgeting can’t spend money on helping those in N.O. is B.S. A can of soup is less than a dollar and it will feed a child for one meal. If a million Americans gave one can of soup, then we’d feed a million children and they wouldn’t have to go hungry.

To say that I don’t know how to help or I’m not old enough is another load of B.S. Anyone can go online, look up the red cross and see half a dozen ways to help, or to donate. Hell, I’ll make it even easier by GIVING you the link

To say that you need to save money because of the gas prices is B.S. Gas prices were high before the hurricane, an approximate fifty cent rise was all that accumulated in the aftermath in most areas.

 

Piss and Moan Pt. 3

Sad to say, truthfully, most people won’t help because they simply don’t want to. They feel bad, and they have sympathy for those who were hit by the storm, but they’re glad that it didn’t happen to them. It’s easier to ignore the guilt by making up excuses, or changing the channel, or simply putting it off until later day after day. It’s easier that way, isn’t it? I know how it is. I’m a victim of that sometimes myself.

The point is the more people keep making up bullshit excuses about helping out and the less they actually do something the problems down there will only get worse. We’re only going to see more and more of the fools with guns on T.V. We’ll only see more and more of the cranky, ungrateful whiners on the News. We’ll only see more lootings, robberies, rapes and murders.

But it’s ok, because we don’t live down there. It’s far away from us, and it will never happen where we live, right? Those are poor people’s problems/black people’s problems/southern folk’s problems/other people’s problems, not my own. Let them deal with it. Hypocrisy is someone else’s sin, not my own.

Cause and effect. Unless we make the good things happen how can we expect anything good to come out of the disaster down there? Unless we quit our B****ing, buckle down as a nation, band together as one, how can we expect the news about their situation to improve? Goodness breeds goodness, neglect breeds neglect. If we stood together and gave to those who needed it maybe the stories about the guns, shootings, rapes, murders, suicides would go away. Maybe if we were just a little bit more like those people who volunteered to go and help with the Red Cross relief efforts we might see more smiles on the TV, and less tears. If we ceased being the stuck up, rich, politically correct, morally corrupt nation then we’ve become then maybe, just maybe we wouldn’t have to have debates about things like this. Maybe, just maybe, we might actually make the world a better place.

Just maybe…


How dare I say such things. How dare I spout such garbage, working on my computer that I own, sitting in my air conditioned home, eating delivery pizza and listening to music. How dare I repeat what I see on TV all the time, day after day. I don’t have any idea about losing everything. I don’t have any idea about being in their situation. I don’t know a damn thing.

It’s true, I don’t.

No, instead I know about what I have. I know about how lucky I am right now. I know about ‘having’ and being thankful for what I got. That’s why I say what I do about those who do not. That’s why I believe that change can make things better. That’s why I try to say what many people like to tuck away and forget. I know that ownership is as fleeting as the time we have left. I know that we 've got to make good while we still can, because who knows when we may be in thier shoes. Who knows when we'll be the ones with only our lives and the clothes on our backs. Who knows when we, ourselves, might get carried away in the waters.

So how dare I.


Pardon my language, but sometimes the heart takes over for the mouth and the heart of a sailor has never been very ‘G’ rated, I apologize. I don’t want to leave such an emotionally charged post on a bad note so I’ll toss this little story I heard in right here for you all. I think this was hilarious and it proves that like those who are contributing what they can (even if it is only a little) and not making up worthless excuses, there are people down there who still cling to good morals and ideals.

I saw on a news report a young news woman was talking about Gas Price Gouging that was going on in the few remaining Gas Stations around the New Orleans area. Apparently they were charging a ridiculous amount of money for gas (almost six dollars per gallon) and it was upsetting many individuals who still had cars. They were in a tight spot as it was and now these Gas Station owners trying to take advantage of them?

The news woman approached one owner of a gas station who was charging almost seven dollars per gallon and asked him why he was doing that. Folding his arms the gas station owner, chewing on a toothpick, smacked his lips and cocked a thumb behind him.
“My gas station might have some of the highest prices in New Orleans, but police and emergency rescue vehicles can get their petrol here for free. I figure that if anyone is inconsiderate enough to crowd what little roads we have left standing, blockin’ traffic for the cops and the EMTs, then they can pay seven dollars a gallon for the hassle.”

The news woman blinked once, turned toward the camera, smiled and signed off. From what I’m told no one has been complaining about the gas prices down there since.


~Wert (100th post - Yay)

 

O.O how did a quote from mine end up in that long post(s)? How did what you quote pertain to what you said.... I was talking about the people where I live... I'm confused.
Did I say that the people of New Orleans were anything like the wealthy people on the East side of Montgomery? Not the last time I checked. In fact isn't poverty part of the issue? The news keeps ranting about how race and income levels are part of the reason that some areas are being neglected.
Well actually they go on more about race than they do poverty, but that Asian article (that I posted a link to on the Hurricane Katrina thread in current events) said something about poverty.

ADD moment:
Interesting implecations of how the hurricane has sent ripples beyond just the economy.

 

Leshee here...

I guess that part was a little vague. I understand your comment was about your home town, but I was trying to use it to illustrate the differences in wealth between where you come from and New Orleans. What I was trying to say was New Orleans like where YOU come from, an area where people had much wealth and everyone drove cars to where they needed to go? The answer was no, that was why many people could not get out, because they were not as financially well off as a large portion of the country (your hometown for example.)

I guess it was a bit out of context, my mistake. :shy2:

That's what's so sad about this whole situation. It shouldn't be about race, it should be about people helping people in bad times. Has our country become so bad that even in times of tragedy we bicker and whine about skin color?

(haHA!! I quote you again with impunity!!)

~the Indelible Wert

 

Amen. They had their chance.

 

Devil's Advocate

Ah, but how chilling is our own arrogance? Many people living in the poor parts of N.O. didn't have the means to evacuate on time. It wasn't necessarily a matter of arrogance, but a matter of poverty.

Sometimes sitting atop our own thrones staring down at those who are struggling through life, we forget the obvious. Not everyone stayed because of thier own stupidity. It's those who were helpless that I save my pity for.