Kosmos anomalies

Ben Ward wrote:
>
> --- In isaotomita at yahoogroups.com, "kimbawlion2001" <kimba at k...> wrote:
> > --- > > >> Which release is that? My copy of 5660-2-RC just has the
> > 3:07 version.
> > > > >
> > > > >For what it's worth it's the 3:46 or so version.
> > > >
> > > > What is?
> > >
> > > The longer version of Star Wars, but no, I don't have the best ofs
> > > myself to check them
> >
> > Well, how do you like that... Because of this discussion, I went and
> > got the UK pressing of the Kosmos LP. There's the extended Star Wars
> > mix! I had never heard it before. It's not on the US LP, nor the US
> > CD nor the Japanese CD.
>
> The short, 3'04 version was the original album version (confirmed by my 1978 vinyl
> copy), so the UK 1984 CD had the "incorrect" 3'46 extended mix put on it. The 1991
> Dolby Surround CD had the same shorter version as the original release, as did the US
> Greatest Hits CD. The UK '84 CD also missed off the 'Aranjuez' piece altogether...

- and "Pacific 231" correct?

What the two have in common is they still have valid European copyright
so I would guess RCA UK wanted to save on royalties. "Star Wars" and
"Also Sprach Zarathustra" still have royalties too, though the latter's
may not always be upheld (I don't know the status but it had copyright).
Still those would be some key selling tracks on the album. Ives
"Unanswered Question" is an unanswered question. The piece was 1908 but
the copyright was filed in the 1950s and is still valid. Perhaps being
American, global rights were easy or they just were winding up with a
too chort album ;-)


>
> Like Kimbalion, I was unaware of the extended edit until I tracked down this 1984 UK
> CD of Kosmos.
>
> I assume this 'error' was either because the original 1984 CD compiler simply person
> picked the wrong tape out of the RCA archive when they premastered the CD, or else
> I.T. or an RCA executive deliberately decided that they would use the master tape
> with the extended version for the original CD release. I don't suppose we'll ever know
> - and anyway in my humble opinion its not exactly Tomita-san's finest recorded
> hour! ;-)

Yeah, but ummm... it was the only hit Meco ever had. At least his
contemporary Deodato had some lesser hits than the disco "2001" and got
to work with Björk decades later ;-)


But still has anyone confirmed catalog numbers?


Since the UK "Kosmos" LP has the long "Star Wars", right? That would
have to be the source. But, have we confirmed the Japanese "Kosmos" LP
does not have the long "Star Wars"

We could track this subject better if this is confirmed

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:55:28 -0500, you wrote:

>> The short, 3'04 version was the original album version (confirmed by my 1978 vinyl
>> copy), so the UK 1984 CD had the "incorrect" 3'46 extended mix put on it. The 1991
>> Dolby Surround CD had the same shorter version as the original release, as did the US
>> Greatest Hits CD. The UK '84 CD also missed off the 'Aranjuez' piece altogether...
>
>- and "Pacific 231" correct?

I would imagine so, since the '78 UK LP also omitted both of those
pieces.

FWIW, the postman just delivered the '79 UK Greatest Hits LP, and it also
has the long version of Star Wars. For whatever reason, this must have
been the "official" version for the UK, but apparently nowhere else.

(There was a _German_ Greatest Hits LP on ebay recently, but I didn't go
for it.)

 

Ben Ward wrote:
>
> --- In isaotomita at yahoogroups.com, Kimba W. Lion <kimba at k...> wrote:
> > >The common short (3'04) version, [2.8Mb mp3] which
> > >appeared on the original 1978 US & UK LP
> >
> > Thanks for making those MP3s. One correction, though: I just got the
> > UK LP, and it has the _longer_ version.
> >
> > So, apparently the UK CD was just perpetuating what had already been
> > released in the UK.
>
> Yes, you're right of course; I was getting myself confused there for a second. Maybe
> US execs at RCA couldn't handle the extra sepcial effects. The long version does seem
> to be an exclusive UK thing.

Well it could have been an airplay consideration.

It sounds to me like a version prepared for a single and then not issued
as such.

So with the longer version, how does it segue into the next track. Is
there a silence?

I think what's on the Japanese LP might answer some questions


> UK 1986 'Tomita's Greatest Hits' LP RCA LP 3037 (long version, and four less tracks
> compared to the CD)

though the first consumer compilation originally came out in '79
(right?) for what that's worth, so if you want to get picky, the CD has
additional tracks.

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:53:41 -0500, you wrote:

>So with the longer version, how does it segue into the next track. Is
>there a silence?

There's a silence.

>I think what's on the Japanese LP might answer some questions

The Japanese CD matches the US LP in terms of contents, although the
track order is different.

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:53:41 -0500, you wrote:

>I think what's on the Japanese LP might answer some questions

The track sampler at isaotomita.com has the shorter version, too. (Even
though this is just an excerpt, the "extra" opening overlaps the music at
the beginning of the sample on that site, so it would have been audible
if the sample had been taken from the long version.)

 

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:53:41 -0500, you wrote:

>> UK 1986 'Tomita's Greatest Hits' LP RCA LP 3037 (long version, and four less tracks
>> compared to the CD)
>
>though the first consumer compilation originally came out in '79
>(right?) for what that's worth, so if you want to get picky, the CD has
>additional tracks.

Right. The UK Greatest Hits LP (RL43076) came out in '79; the US CD came
out in '86 and had some post-'79 tracks. I don't have any other versions
of the first Greatest Hits comp to compare track listings. I noticed the
UK LP avoided "Planets" tracks, which were pre-'79.

 

>
> The Japanese CD matches the US LP in terms of contents, although the
> track order is different.
>

Does anyone know why the record companies do these kind of things,
like just changing the track order for the release in another country?
It seems to me like it'd be more costly to change the track order,
because then they'd need a new master for the manufacturing plant of
the record etc. And it doesn't make sense to me why a simple change of
track order would be more suitable for another country. Maybe they
think that the opening track is the most important one and has to be
different in different cultures and countries... or? Anyone?

Mikael Hillborg
MHC Synthesizers and Effects
http://www.mhc.se/software/plugins/

 

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:25:09 +0100, you wrote:

>Maybe they
>think that the opening track is the most important one and has to be
>different in different cultures and countries... or? Anyone?

The best theory I can come up with--and this is just a guess--is that the
marketing types figured they had to grab the buyer immediately when he
was perusiing the track list; probably figuring that if "Star Wars"
wasn't first in the track list, people wouldn't read down far enough to
see it. And in this country, a whole lot more people are going to know
"Star Wars" than _any_ piece of classical music.

Just a guess. That sure doesn't explain why the album was shortened for
the UK.

Whenever anything is imported it gets run through a gamut of
second-guessers. Look at the way the Beatles albums were mangled for the
US. The 1989 Jungle Emperor TV show was destroyed by marketing types
wanting a Saturday-morning mentality and a "3 and up" rating. And
Miyazaki's films are re-scored even though Disney puts forth that they
are unaltered.

In the liner notes for Kosmos (and why was a K more marketable than a
C?), Tomita said that he had a unifying concept for the album. I'm sure
that part of the notes was cut out, though, since the track order was
scrambled for the US and, in addition, two tracks were left out for the
UK.

The stupidest (IMO) marketing reworking of a Tomita album was the Daphnis
et Chloe album, which became Bolero. I know, at the time we had the
legacy of the Dudley Moore movie, "10" (which I never saw), but I can't
think of a more boring piece of tonal music than Bolero. If the album
hadn't had the Tomita name prominently on it, I would never have even
picked it up to look at the track list.

 

"Kimba W. Lion" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:25:09 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >Maybe they
> >think that the opening track is the most important one and has to be
> >different in different cultures and countries... or? Anyone?
>
> The best theory I can come up with--and this is just a guess--is that the
> marketing types figured they had to grab the buyer immediately when he
> was perusiing the track list; probably figuring that if "Star Wars"
> wasn't first in the track list, people wouldn't read down far enough to
> see it. And in this country, a whole lot more people are going to know
> "Star Wars" than _any_ piece of classical music.
>
> Just a guess. That sure doesn't explain why the album was shortened for
> the UK.

The minute details/rationalization are unknown to me. But remember UK
RCA had that great big likely costly problem with the Holst estate in
their own contry on the prior Tomita album. So the pieces that were
dropped were one quasi well known piece (Aranjuez) by a then still
living artist where Tomita is taking a credit and then a piece with
copyright royalties and I believe a widow still active in her husband's legacy.

As for the extra material, it smells like it was prepared for a never
released single. There is a sort of stand alone aspect to it.

It would be nice to know about the Japanese LP.

> Whenever anything is imported it gets run through a gamut of
> second-guessers. Look at the way the Beatles albums were mangled for the
> US.

True though the marketing reasons have been made clear numerous times -

I guess unless Tomita knows and tells us or we find someone from RCA UK,
it is quite a mystery.

The 1989 Jungle Emperor TV show was destroyed by marketing types
> wanting a Saturday-morning mentality and a "3 and up" rating. And
> Miyazaki's films are re-scored even though Disney puts forth that they
> are unaltered.

Yeah, Miyazaki had the japanese language songs altered but it can be
argued it fell under the auspecies of dubbing it. The up side is they do
release the alternate Japanese track, right? So it's not exactly like
they did what was done to "Warriors of the Wind"

>
> In the liner notes for Kosmos (and why was a K more marketable than a
> C?),

My theory is think there was an attempt to spend big advertisement
dollars commercialize Pro Soccer in the U.S. at the time and the New
York Cosmos was the local team for RCA in New York

Tomita said that he had a unifying concept for the album. I'm sure
> that part of the notes was cut out, though, since the track order was
> scrambled for the US and, in addition, two tracks were left out for the
> UK.

Good point, though if you look at what's going on, it seems mainly Star
Wars was moved for commercial purposes (read airplay)
>
> The stupidest (IMO) marketing reworking of a Tomita album was the Daphnis
> et Chloe album, which became Bolero. I know, at the time we had the
> legacy of the Dudley Moore movie, "10" (which I never saw), but I can't
> think of a more boring piece of tonal music than Bolero.

Though you do have to understand how desirable a "crossover" Classical
release is.

A lot of people buy more classical albums after getting some sort of
film related compilation. On the other hand I'll agree it's the least
interesting track on that album. Conversely I can see what Ravel was
after with a sort of perpetual mobile sort of thing. Ravel had had
difficulty especially with La Valse which was so dense it confounded
choreography, so to Ravel I presume a sort of minimalist piece to dance
to with his frequently re-visited Spanish roots was in order


If the album
> hadn't had the Tomita name prominently on it, I would never have even
> picked it up to look at the track list.

Yeah, I wasn't looking forward to it myself and was unfamiliar with the
other pieces at the time. I think that other fairly peppy Moog album
with it was already out too.(the one with the fart sounds but perhaps a
more lively rendition)