mellotrons

I owned a mellotron and used it onstage for 25 years.I
read over and over the bad things people said about
the machine.I rarely had any troubles with it because
I was always on one end of it when it was moved.I had
an Anvil ATA flight case for it.It was treated like an
acoustic guitar or any other delicate instrument.Those
who badmouthed it usually had no control over things
like road crews treatment or else they didn't have a
clue and tried to play it like a Hammond or piano.
When the tron was cleaned,lubricated,and demagnetized
regularly and the keyboard adjustments kept up the
machine always played like butter for me.
In the end I sold it off for an Emulator 4 keyboard
with the Mellotron Archives cd rom,mainly due to space
limitation and weight of transport.I would own another
one in a second and do plan on getting one down the
road for my home studio whenever I get settled in to
my permanent base.Mellotron Archives have completely
redone the tapes(cleaned up
sound,retuned,etc.),motors,and audio section so Mike
your comments about the sound quality are no longer
applicable.
I read that Tomita used to put BABY POWDER on the
tapes so they would play better,for God's sake!That's
really great on tape I am sure.Myself,I used Tascam
head lubricant(silicone based) on the heads and
anyplace the tape touched and it really flowed
smoothly.I even shared this secret with David Cross
from King Crimson in 74 who was having a lot of tapes
sticking.
The tron(and it's cousin the Chamberlin) was a
unique animal and like all unique animals required
special care and feeding.The horror stories I always
read made me laugh because I wasn't having them.
Granted,samplers with enough memory(like my E4K) can
load in the entire keyboard range of the tron now so
every note is available without the mechanical
limitation.It DOES sound pretty darn close and I am
sure most of the listeners wouldn't be able to tell
the difference(or care actually).And with the
sampler's envelopes and filters and efx I can now
duplicate Tomita's choir if I choose.Cool!But there's
something special about that nice wood cabinet and
strange feeling keyboard,very 'antique' and a great
collector's item.Go to www.mellotron.com to read about
and see pics of the new Mk 6 which they will build you
for a mere $4500.
Regards Charles

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Very nice commentary by Charles ovrall, I have a quibble about--

>And with the
> sampler's envelopes and filters and efx I can now
> duplicate Tomita's choir if I choose.

First off, he wrote a lot of choral work, (there were lots of trained
large choruses in Japan some decades back, so there was demand for
original material in an idiom thats not quite classical or pop)

I had assumed that some of the massed choral sounds were custom tapes...
maybe not.

What I can say is you'll only have a double approximation in the E 4 as
the filters, vca, etc are a far cry from what Tomita had, but still I'm
sure you'll get something not that bad.

Its begins to bring up a real important point thats highlighted in an
other post better. Anyway a point Charles didn't touch is the right
small amount of imperfection gives the sound a lively edge. The one
catch with sampling is it does the same exact thing every time. You can
easily play back a tape with a little warble or flaw, but it defeats the
purpose when it does that every time the same way. One wants their gear
to work properly, but a little trouble can be a nice thing.

I agree with Amin on the Xpander, of non-modular gear you simply have
more and varried tools available than on all but a couple synths out
there and saying a couple might be overestimating. I guess the Virus has
the asset of 2 filters and the ability to route one voice through
another. Oh, I've got Intersteller Suite too


> Why don't you try getting a JP-8080 from roland.

My advice is why don't you try listening to a lot of synths. I'd never
flat out reccomend one of those.

> After all, HE DID HELP DESIGN THE THING - AT LEAST THE SOUNDS ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

never heard that in specific, though he does certainly consult for
roland and I wouldn't be surprised if he made up patches. Know which ones?

Anyway the JP-8000/8080 is an attempt to recreate the Jupiter 6 (1983
vintage) via digital simulation. They threw in some intersting new
wafeform sources and added a digital vocoder that quite a few people
like on the 8080. Its interesting they didn't recreate their more
legendary (in most aficionados opinion) Jupiter 8, it may have been too
difficult and the chose a more varried with less IMHO character design.

> If you have a Sampler, and just want the sounds, you can buy the sounds from nicebytes,
> as they make sample CD's- go on EBAY and look under the AKAI sampler (search on AKAI)
> and you can get the Sample CD of the JP8080 for about $30

I'm not saying it can't be fun, cheap thrills and all but if you think
about it, thats really the anthesis of why I think a lot of people like
Tomita-- come on samples of a fake analog synth.

the fake analog takes the always changing character out of the sound
then the samples rob it of all but the most basic realtime expression

if you don't have $1,000 to spend.
> I also got a Yamaha AN1X CD as well. I actually bought a JP8080 a while back before the sampler.
> You have about 50-70 knobs to turn on the JP8080, an it operates just like an old synth, except you can
> STORE what you are doing in the internal memory or the Smart Card.

mmmm you can STORE on 95% of synths made in the last 20 years and a few
even older.

The only credit I'll give is to the new crop of simulated modular synths
since they really do allow for previously near impossible features like
patch storage and full featured easy polyphony

> It's lots of fun getting the sounds from an analog synth, I admit, but the
> JP8080 has them clearly defined, and if you buy one of those you can see what the
> settings are and plug them into your ARP2600, Moog, Oberheim, or whatever.
> Then you might come close. Just a thought.

Yes its true that you can learn from a good patch in anything sharing a
similar architecture-- like with 2 VCOs 2 ADSRs, a VCF, etc. Anything
real nice will tend to sound quite different though, its the real simple
patches that start to sound the same. The complex ones and extreme
sounds tend to be very different, thats why people buy all those synths!

Anyway, I guess my point is what makes Tomita's sound so magic besides
creative choices is that the sound is always changing tone color and its
almost always very expressive.

I've had this theory about new technology, I call it the theory of
convenience. My theory was that with older pre-sample based synth
equipment if you did something slap dash it would sound like crap of
course, while if you worked pretty hard you could craft some nice music.
When you tried to simulate real instruments there would always be a fake
quality, but that fake quality was kind of surreal especially if the
synthesist understood this and played that aspect up... like not real
but surreal. Some one good like Tomita would insist on interesting
layering and changing within a sound, not the same canned sound just
being spat out. Its true that people spent months doing it, couldn't
consider doing it really right on deadline based peojects, but thats the
way it was. Then there was this side effect. None of this gear was
incredibly stable, so that too was more work to keep it from sounding
sour, but the fringe benefit was there was that sheen of slightly
changing unpredictability thats added as an artifact

The problem with lots of sample based instruments, while I'm sure most
are quite capable of some sort really creative work in the right hands,
the think is they can do say good enough synth strings to be
"acceptable" to many, good enough instrument recreations to be good
enough to many. Every thing is capable of bad sounds but the newer
generations of gear from the mid 80s on, in a generalized way, seems
aces at being "good enough", "convenient", "okay", however you want to
describe it. So one has the tendency to just use its convenience and go
on to other things because of time or distraction or impatience or
whatever. Its easy enough to get something that one thinks they can let
rest as is.

But whats of course lost is all the wonderful side effects of all those
old electronic circuits never doing things perfectly, those non linear
changes in the sound and the further creativity one has to do to make
the sound interesting rather than the burdon of choosing a preset that
catches your fancy

And I don't believe that since your sample based instrument has a filter
it means that all of a sudden you have the equivalent of something else
or you have something significantly more expressive-- you still have an
underlying wave that being used over and over and over.

So its kind of convenient for the composer who pulls out the weak
imatation of some 15+ year old synth or the "good enough" orchestral
sample, so there is a satisfaction in that if say they wanted to hear
their musical idea, but for music I'd want to hear, its the worst of
both worlds. Like some interesting synthesis takes you to other worlds,
but someone sequencer creation with ROM waves only says to me if there
is hope for the composition to be realized properly by other means. Like
I want sonic charistics I cant get in the real world, not "that sounds
exactly like an emotionless trumpet", or "didn't I just hear that exact
same filter sweep recording"

Finally I'm running into many articles on a popular subject in music and
art trends in general, they are saying, and I kind of agree that the
artists themselves are more and more functioning as choosers rather than
creators, like they probably make something, but that something is made
up by choosing over creating.

Like even the many small companies making analog synths instead of
digital ones, its cool and all but most seem to be *choosing* the
modules they take a liking to and basing their new designs on them. I'm
not saying anyone should reinvent the wheel, but why aren't they pushing
forward with the next new thing rather than their next new creation
being stll another old design they want to reissue. Same with the
simulated analog synth makers. Wow, they added a handfull of new
features to 95% features they had 15+ years ago. Thats progress I guess
thats its more convenient and not bad enough that it won't sell.

While there are exceptions the best successes in virtual simulated
features seems to be--

simulating the limited feature sets of 20 year old synths (by not using
them as a foundation for going beyond simulating something long existing)

simulating the high cost per voice and low polyphony of those earlier synths

nick

 

Hi Nick
I had read someplace that Tomita had recorded his
own tapes for his tron using a Japanese choir.He even
had humming sounds.I certainly don't claim to be the
composer for choir that he is.I was referring to the
attack envelope kind of stuff he did running the tron
through the Moog filters and adsr.I have both the full
8 voice mixed stock mellotron choir and the
male/female only choirs which I sampled from my own
tron before I sold it.The male only voices,mixed on
another track doubling the 8 voice mixed,really
appoximates Tomita's tonal quality.And good deep
digital reverb is essential.Of course it's up to the
player to make it come to life.
The thing to do I think would be to record several
tracks/layers of choral work,changing filter and eq
settings etc. for each new track(as Tomita did with
his mono string sounds),changing panning,vibratos,etc.
My favorite keyboard choir compostion lately has been
on Nick Magnus(ex Steve Hackett) album INHALING GREEN
on the title track where he used the Symphony Of
Voices cd rom superbly.I can imagine what Tomita could
do with those sounds.
Regards
Charles

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----- Original Message -----
From: N. Kent
To: isaotomita at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [isaotomita] Re:mellotrons

I did listen to a lot of synths-
A lot of the problem is those Moog's, Arp's, etc. are pretty old, expensive, and rare.
The KORG MS-2000 and Nord and Oberheim synths are all nice instruments aswell,
but none seemed to have the feel of the Roland JP-8080. I have listened to quite
a bit of synths, and I own a few. Why would you not recommend one of these?
I think that most synth users would like to spend less time creating sounds,
and more time performing with them. To me, this device is a happy medium
where you can create sounds, save them, and have the same control over them
as you would with an analog synthesizer. I am not saying that everything
else is not a good synth, that is not what I am saying at all, it's just
that in regards for performance for the money it is no doubt the No#1 synth
still being produced out there.

I stress the fact that is - still in production - says quite a bit for this module.
I have a memorymoog that's broken, and when I get that working, (If I canever
get the stupid thing fixed-) which I hear is a constant problem with thisand
many other analog synths. The memorymoog was one of the first analog synths you could store patches on, but it is very old to say the least and the things go into disrepair very quickly, they constantly break, which is notorius for this and other analog synths.

So just because a synth could do something 20 years ago, doesn't mean it can
still do it today! My roommate and I decided that it is probably not worth
it to even fix the memorymoog, it would cost more money and time than thething
is worth. So when is a new synth ever going to be "Good Enough" when compared
to old synths? Everyone is "Oh yeah my Moog blah blah blah and my Arp blah blah
blah" I know this sounds Cruel but - the companies DON'T even EXIST anymore.

If someone was to make a synth like those anymore - what would the cost of
production be? Jupiter 6 - When was the last one of those made? I hate toRain on a parade
but WHERE can you find those? Ebay, where you will pay 5x what it is worth,
and it's possibly broken, this is all IF the person even decides to ship it
to you? What about getting something that is still produced and supported,
or at the very least - the company is still around. If not a JP-8080 then
What else would you recommend? A Nord, and Oberheim? There are a handful of
other synths, ranging from $700 to $3,000. I just think this is the best "Happy Meduim"
synthesis device for someone just learning about analog synthesis.

It is a great tool, and something different coming into the digital age of "sample
playback" synths that makes people realize that analog synthesis can alsobe
a lot of fun, sound cool as well. I do agree with your "Instant Gratification"
- if you will view on creativity - I have this view on society - they don't want
to put the time into getting a good sound, nor are they alotted time to do this
today. Everything is rush rush rush, bigger better faster. It seems like society
feels the need today to SQUASH CREATIVITY by whatever means necessary. I spent
4 or 5 hours creating ONE patch on the JP-8080. Others I spent 1 -2 hourscreating.

Also what stores are left to go buy musical instruments at? Are they not dwindling? I
mean we have guitar center and mars who carry a few synths, and musician's friend
and Sweetwater which are mail order SO you can't try the stuff out beforeyou
buy it... I am not going to blow $2800 on something I don't like. I will say
that you do have to admit that in the sample-infested world of today thatcredit
is due to someone who is still manufacturing a REAL synth, not just a sample
playback machine. That you cannot deny. I only recommended the JP8080 Sample
Cd to see if the people liked the basic sounds of the synth, - a cheap way to
try it before you buy it if you will - because trying it out in the storeis
not always easy (not hooked up, etc. which leads me back to the instant
gratification and amount of service available from any dealers today) I will say
there is nothing more gratifying when playing an analog synth sound then
reaching over, and changing the envelope, the resonance filters, depth and
rate of the LFO's. The Sample CD's don't compare at all to that. On the other hand,
I would not necessairily have bought a JP-8080 just hearing the Sample CD.
I had to play with it, for hours and hours before I bought mine. However a
Yamaha AN1X - sure - not enough knobs to justify buying the real thing
- not enough control. A Korg MS-2000 is definitely worth buying the real thing
the amount of knobs to tweak is excellent. I bought this to create my ownsounds,
and not just to listen to the canned sounds it contains. That's what my sampler is for,
and the other sound modules - the STATIC(as in unchanging)canned sounds Iwill need to use
in some musical works.

I wonder if this is a good synth buying equation or Formula -
IF a synth has good sounds and fits style of music on presets that you would like to play,
and has flexibility so you can create my own sounds OR change the preset sounds with the turn of a knob and it is well designed mechanically - Then Buy it! But many other practical considerations are this - How much room doyou have to store these or set them up? How many mixers do you need to have hooked up just to play with the things (I have 3 daisy chained, a Korg 168RC, Fostex VM200, and a MAckie 1604, and all inputs are being used by somedevice or another).

----------------------------
> Why don't you try getting a JP-8080 from roland.

My advice is why don't you try listening to a lot of synths. I'd never
flat out reccomend one of those.

> After all, HE DID HELP DESIGN THE THING - AT LEAST THE SOUNDS ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

never heard that in specific, though he does certainly consult for
roland and I wouldn't be surprised if he made up patches. Know which ones?
--------------------------------------
No, I can't say exactly which ones, but I do remember reading about it - somewhere
I will have to get the email from this newsgroup and FWD it to you.
I know that he did, but I can't prove it right now ----
-------------------------------------

Anyway the JP-8000/8080 is an attempt to recreate the Jupiter 6 (1983
vintage) via digital simulation. They threw in some intersting new
wafeform sources and added a digital vocoder that quite a few people
like on the 8080. Its interesting they didn't recreate their more
legendary (in most aficionados opinion) Jupiter 8, it may have been too
difficult and the chose a more varried with less IMHO character design.

> If you have a Sampler, and just want the sounds, you can buy the soundsfrom nicebytes,
> as they make sample CD's- go on EBAY and look under the AKAI sampler (search on AKAI)
> and you can get the Sample CD of the JP8080 for about $30

I'm not saying it can't be fun, cheap thrills and all but if you think
about it, thats really the anthesis of why I think a lot of people like
Tomita-- come on samples of a fake analog synth.

the fake analog takes the always changing character out of the sound
then the samples rob it of all but the most basic realtime expression

if you don't have $1,000 to spend.
> I also got a Yamaha AN1X CD as well. I actually bought a JP8080 a whileback before the sampler.
> You have about 50-70 knobs to turn on the JP8080, an it operates just like an old synth, except you can
> STORE what you are doing in the internal memory or the Smart Card.

mmmm you can STORE on 95% of synths made in the last 20 years and a few
even older.

The only credit I'll give is to the new crop of simulated modular synths
since they really do allow for previously near impossible features like
patch storage and full featured easy polyphony

> It's lots of fun getting the sounds from an analog synth, I admit, but the
> JP8080 has them clearly defined, and if you buy one of those you can see what the
> settings are and plug them into your ARP2600, Moog, Oberheim, or whatever.
> Then you might come close. Just a thought.

Yes its true that you can learn from a good patch in anything sharing a
similar architecture-- like with 2 VCOs 2 ADSRs, a VCF, etc. Anything
real nice will tend to sound quite different though, its the real simple
patches that start to sound the same. The complex ones and extreme
sounds tend to be very different, thats why people buy all those synths!

Anyway, I guess my point is what makes Tomita's sound so magic besides
creative choices is that the sound is always changing tone color and its
almost always very expressive.

I've had this theory about new technology, I call it the theory of
convenience. My theory was that with older pre-sample based synth
equipment if you did something slap dash it would sound like crap of
course, while if you worked pretty hard you could craft some nice music.
When you tried to simulate real instruments there would always be a fake
quality, but that fake quality was kind of surreal especially if the
synthesist understood this and played that aspect up... like not real
but surreal. Some one good like Tomita would insist on interesting
layering and changing within a sound, not the same canned sound just
being spat out. Its true that people spent months doing it, couldn't
consider doing it really right on deadline based peojects, but thats the
way it was. Then there was this side effect. None of this gear was
incredibly stable, so that too was more work to keep it from sounding
sour, but the fringe benefit was there was that sheen of slightly
changing unpredictability thats added as an artifact

The problem with lots of sample based instruments, while I'm sure most
are quite capable of some sort really creative work in the right hands,
the think is they can do say good enough synth strings to be
"acceptable" to many, good enough instrument recreations to be good
enough to many. Every thing is capable of bad sounds but the newer
generations of gear from the mid 80s on, in a generalized way, seems
aces at being "good enough", "convenient", "okay", however you want to
describe it. So one has the tendency to just use its convenience and go
on to other things because of time or distraction or impatience or
whatever. Its easy enough to get something that one thinks they can let
rest as is.

But whats of course lost is all the wonderful side effects of all those
old electronic circuits never doing things perfectly, those non linear
changes in the sound and the further creativity one has to do to make
the sound interesting rather than the burdon of choosing a preset that
catches your fancy

And I don't believe that since your sample based instrument has a filter
it means that all of a sudden you have the equivalent of something else
or you have something significantly more expressive-- you still have an
underlying wave that being used over and over and over.

So its kind of convenient for the composer who pulls out the weak
imatation of some 15+ year old synth or the "good enough" orchestral
sample, so there is a satisfaction in that if say they wanted to hear
their musical idea, but for music I'd want to hear, its the worst of
both worlds. Like some interesting synthesis takes you to other worlds,
but someone sequencer creation with ROM waves only says to me if there
is hope for the composition to be realized properly by other means. Like
I want sonic charistics I cant get in the real world, not "that sounds
exactly like an emotionless trumpet", or "didn't I just hear that exact
same filter sweep recording"

Finally I'm running into many articles on a popular subject in music and
art trends in general, they are saying, and I kind of agree that the
artists themselves are more and more functioning as choosers rather than
creators, like they probably make something, but that something is made
up by choosing over creating.

Like even the many small companies making analog synths instead of
digital ones, its cool and all but most seem to be *choosing* the
modules they take a liking to and basing their new designs on them. I'm
not saying anyone should reinvent the wheel, but why aren't they pushing
forward with the next new thing rather than their next new creation
being stll another old design they want to reissue. Same with the
simulated analog synth makers. Wow, they added a handfull of new
features to 95% features they had 15+ years ago. Thats progress I guess
thats its more convenient and not bad enough that it won't sell.

While there are exceptions the best successes in virtual simulated
features seems to be--

simulating the limited feature sets of 20 year old synths (by not using
them as a foundation for going beyond simulating something long existing)

simulating the high cost per voice and low polyphony of those earlier synths

nick


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> > > Why don't you try getting a JP-8080 from roland.
> >
> > My advice is why don't you try listening to a lot of synths. I'd never
> > flat out reccomend one of those.

> I did listen to a lot of synths-

Okay then, thats the point I was trying to make, Its good for you but
I'd never tell people just to go get one. All I can say is I've played
one a bunch of times and even had a friend who got his JP-8000 months
before it was released, he wasn't playing it live the last time I caught
him. All I can say anmd recount is a real life and rather expensive
opportunity, I was at at music shop at lunch, it wasn't crowded and I
was able to go back and forth with the earlier JP-8000, a Nord Lead and
an AN1x, they all had something ok about them but the whole experience
was kind of depressing. I was thinking "Is this the best they can do"?
That evening I met up with a friend then working at another music shop
just to chat. "Hey nick, we have a Voyetra Eight in, you want to mess
with it?" -- damn that was in such a different league!

> A lot of the problem is those Moog's, Arp's, etc. are pretty old, expensive, and rare.
> The KORG MS-2000 and Nord and Oberheim synths are all nice instruments as well,
> but none seemed to have the feel of the Roland JP-8080.

As an aside you skip the Virus, Nord Modular and Reaktor (which of
course isn't hardware), all of which are immensely more interesting than
any of that.

I have listened to quite
> a bit of synths, and I own a few. Why would you not recommend one of these?
> I think that most synth users would like to spend less time creating sounds,
> and more time performing with them. To me, this device is a happy medium
> where you can create sounds, save them, and have the same control over them
> as you would with an analog synthesizer.

Yeah, thats probably me, I just like synths with sounds that excite me,
that have a lot of places to explore, I see a lot of commercial synths
now as primarily aiming primarily to satisfy people, not giving them
overly much to explore or deal with or collaborate with. Thats my
convenience point, I'd be full of crap to say out and out that all these
new units sound terrible, they don't they sound good enough to keep a
lot of people happy, my point is they help you a lot by being
convenient, not by being really inspiring or interesting.


> I am not saying that everything
> else is not a good synth, that is not what I am saying at all, it's just
> that in regards for performance for the money it is no doubt the No#1 synth
> still being produced out there.

Yes you and many people are obviously satisfied, what comes out of it is
not crap or anything, its just that sort of common denominator sounds
and architecture (yes I know it has a couple of real extreme waves and
then the rest are lackluster simulations of plain oscs) it doesn't
really go anywhere interesting

>
> I stress the fact that is - still in production - says quite a bit for this module.

see my comments about not wanting to risk anything new. The only smart
comment I can make about that is the VCS3 has been in near continous
production about 3 decades longer


> I have a memorymoog that's broken, and when I get that working, (If I can ever
> get the stupid thing fixed-) which I hear is a constant problem with this and
> many other analog synths. The memorymoog was one of the first analog synths you could store patches on,
> but it is very old to say the least and the things go into disrepair very quickly, they constantly break,
> which is notorius for this and other analog synths.

err, nitpicking you are off by half a decade, I think the OB1 had the
first modern patch storage

but yes back in those days they did push things kind of hard and things
had bad failure rates, certainly some companies failed to a large extent
due to that. I guess thats is why big companies are wary about releasing
anything genuinely new anymore. Its so much easier to just release
something that can sell then release it again each year adding a feature
or 2.

> So just because a synth could do something 20 years ago, doesn't mean it can
> still do it today! My roommate and I decided that it is probably not worth
> it to even fix the memorymoog, it would cost more money and time than the thing
> is worth.

they are worth quite a bit, and the very expensive Lintronics retrofit
done to it is considered by many in the business as the best polysynth
(though the Andromeda complicates the ranking)

But there is a point, no synth is good at everything or perfect so its
all deciding what works for you.

I just think timbre-wise much of what comes out of the new simulated
analogs is no improvement, it points people more toward medocrity than
creative solutions

So when is a new synth ever going to be "Good Enough" when compared
> to old synths? Everyone is "Oh yeah my Moog blah blah blah and my Arp blah blah
> blah" I know this sounds Cruel but - the companies DON'T even EXIST anymore.

Thats the thing the big companies that were creative either failed or
learned to be conservative and cater to songwriters and hobby bands.
Nothing wrong with them, except that it hurts creative synthesis. Then
there are the little companies. I've got a Serge, they are still around
just like 25 years ago (but pricey!)

Its true something always has to give when it comes to creative
technology. Something at that good price may either sound or feature
mediocre features. Something else my be unreliable, That great thing has
a hefty price, that company released the same thing 5 different times as
different products... etc. Thats how things work. I just question the
hype of new technology in an environment which has stabilized to
predominantly choosing something out there and making or more likely
simulating it and stopping there.


> If someone was to make a synth like those anymore - what would the cost of
> production be? Jupiter 6 - When was the last one of those made? I hate to Rain on a parade
> but WHERE can you find those? Ebay, where you will pay 5x what it is worth,
> and it's possibly broken, this is all IF the person even decides to ship it
> to you? What about getting something that is still produced and supported,
> or at the very least - the company is still around. If not a JP-8080 then

You seized on a point I was not making. Its a good point, but I wasn't
making that point. My points were:

1. its predominantly a simulation of something existing, so if Tomita
had design input it wasn't realy design, it was more opinion.

2. I was teasing Roland for not attempting their surely more challenging
and harder to digitaly simulate Jupiter 8 (because its less IC chip
reliant and has more side effects from a hot signal path). Kind of like
why Yamaha chose a less chalenging Curtis IC chip based Prophet 5 as the
basis of their simulation instead of a CS-80... there is less
interesting and quirky character in the original making the simulation
that much easier

> What else would you recommend? A Nord, and Oberheim? There are a handful of
> other synths, ranging from $700 to $3,000. I just think this is the best "Happy Meduim"
> synthesis device for someone just learning about analog synthesis.

I can't help to tease the "Happy Meduim". Thats why I have that my
theory the convenience is one factor in spoiling contemporary electronic
music for listeners. I'm not saying that the people making the music
aren't satisfied, thats kind of the problem, they are satisfied enough
that they need nothing better.

Lets see there are waldorf things that are kind of nice even below $700,
not nice enough for mey to buy but kind of nice (I guess I did buy their
VST plug in). The Virus is not the perfect synth but is feature filled
and sounds way nicer than I expected it to sound. Reaktor is not for
everyone but has great potential. The Andromeda is more difficult to get
sounds out of than it should be but is certainly pretty exciting.
Milwaukee is the capital of esoteric modulars with Serge and Wiard being
based there, I've used both and even visited Grant so I'm not just
re-writing what I hear on the net, the list goes on. I found the Absynth
software quite interesting recently.

It is a great tool, and something different coming into the
digital age of "sample
> playback" synths that makes people realize that analog synthesis can also be
> a lot of fun, sound cool as well.

Yes, all true, but its not worth a 15 year wait! Again I'm not saying
they are plain bad, its just that their okay abilities rub off onto
helping music made with them more likely to be just okay.

> I do agree with your "Instant Gratification"
> - if you will view on creativity - I have this view on society - they don't want
> to put the time into getting a good sound, nor are they alotted time to do this
> today. Everything is rush rush rush, bigger better faster.

yes, today we have the Xtreme (fill in the blank) not the excellent
(fill in the blank)

But I even wish we had that with synths. Maybe Sherman kind of did that,
but they are this tiny company

the "new" synth is either the last 3 old synths in one box or this
"incredible" simulation of something they now realize wasn't such a bad idea.


> It seems like society
> feels the need today to SQUASH CREATIVITY by whatever means necessary. I spent
> 4 or 5 hours creating ONE patch on the JP-8080. Others I spent 1 -2 hours creating.

There is definite satisfaction on getting something just right.

>
> Also what stores are left to go buy musical instruments at? Are they not dwindling? I
> mean we have guitar center and mars who carry a few synths, and musician's friend
> and Sweetwater which are mail order SO you can't try the stuff out before you
> buy it...

I'm sure there were times and situations slightly more conductive, but
there was never a time where you could easily go into a shop and buy a
Moog Modular and take it home try it return it (...actually I was in
a shop in Japan now where you could do something like build your own
Moog, Doepfer, RS, etc. then and there.. though I didn't inquire about
their return policy)

I think you and others are making a bit of a mistake. Moog kind of
started it with the Mini. -- the idea the synths are realistically
consumer goods and should be sold like them. I'm not trying to be
elitist at all, but some things just don't work like consumer goods or
you get consumer quality. Okay for some not okay for others. I'm not
saying its not good if its in shops and certainly not to make not being
in shops a critera for goodness, but for some stuff you do kind of want
to sacrifice the convenience for something good. There are fewer ways,
but certainly one can't say their only option is to buuy blindly

I am not going to blow $2800 on something I don't like. I will say
> that you do have to admit that in the sample-infested world of today that credit
> is due to someone who is still manufacturing a REAL synth, not just a sample
> playback machine. That you cannot deny. I only recommended the JP8080 Sample
> Cd to see if the people liked the basic sounds of the synth, - a cheap way to
> try it before you buy it if you will - because trying it out in the store is
> not always easy (not hooked up, etc. which leads me back to the instant
> gratification and amount of service available from any dealers today)

yeah that is a kind of a decent $30 way to get a demo of a synth.'

By the way does anyone have the 1996 album Roland commissioned Ken Ishii
to do for the JP8000? It was only at Roland dealers for sale to the
public or something, its not a label release

Anyway it was just a little too anti what classic Tomita is all about to
sit still and read

I will say
> there is nothing more gratifying when playing an analog synth sound then
> reaching over, and changing the envelope, the resonance filters, depth and
> rate of the LFO's. The Sample CD's don't compare at all to that. On the other hand,
> I would not necessairily have bought a JP-8080 just hearing the Sample CD.
> I had to play with it, for hours and hours before I bought mine. However a
> Yamaha AN1X - sure - not enough knobs to justify buying the real thing
> - not enough control. A Korg MS-2000 is definitely worth buying the real thing
> the amount of knobs to tweak is excellent. I bought this to create my own sounds,
> and not just to listen to the canned sounds it contains. That's what my sampler is for,
> and the other sound modules - the STATIC(as in unchanging)canned sounds I will need to use
> in some musical works.

Yes, I'm sure we agree on the sampler part, I just think those
simulations are what I've been ranting about, convenient and mediocre.

I was a bit harsh on the simulated modulars. I think they are just
brilliant for inexpensively trying out some very complex synth designs.
The real flaw besides never a 1:1 ratio of real knobs is a real modular
capitalizes on chaotic systems. Though one person I e-mailed is doing
real research and belieives it can be done via extreme oversampling, the
achilles heel of the simulations not properly simulating analog is the
vitrtual synths calculate a sample by looking at all your simulated
modules in order. As soon as something recursive occurs, as simple as a
2 modules modulating eachother, you don't have an accurate simulation
any more and you don't have that unique sound either

> I wonder if this is a good synth buying equation or Formula -
> IF a synth has good sounds and fits style of music on presets that you would like to play,
> and has flexibility so you can create my own sounds OR change the preset sounds with the turn of a knob
> and it is well designed mechanically - Then Buy it! But many other practical considerations are this - How
> much room do you have to store these or set them up? How many mixers do you need to have hooked up just to
> play with the things (I have 3 daisy chained, a Korg 168RC, Fostex VM200, and a MAckie 1604, and all
> inputs are being used by some device or another).

okay, for what its worth my demo equasion is --

Does it make exciting sounds that you can actually use.

Buy what you are passionate about if at all possible, avoid the good
deals unless you have extra room and cash, the good enough will usually
be just that, good enough for a short time, its rare to find what's
really good in whats good enough

if you don't hear anything remotely like a sound you like, its extremely
likely all the programming you can muster will ever get you that sound

can your creativity interface with it?

nick

 

> > I stress the fact that is - still in production - says quite a bit
> for this module.

That's right! Finally, someone's speaking up for EMS, but has Tomita ever used
these synths? I know that Klaus Schulze still has a Synthi A on stage (saw it at
his last concert in May this year) and the European avantgarde liked EMS
products a lot (Stockhausen, Henze etc.). Timeless stuff!

> they are worth quite a bit, and the very expensive Lintronics retrofit
> done to it is considered by many in the business as the best polysynth
> (though the Andromeda complicates the ranking)

Hooray for Lintronics! It's terrific, everyone owning a Memorymoog should update
it this way!!

> I've got a Serge, they are still around
> just like 25 years ago (but pricey!)

Congratulations!

> 2. I was teasing Roland for not attempting their surely more challenging
> and harder to digitaly simulate Jupiter 8 (because its less IC chip
> reliant and has more side effects from a hot signal path). Kind of like

Why a digital simulation of the Jupiter 8? It's just pointless. Get the
(reliable) Super Jupiter rack mount unit, and there you go...

> I'm sure there were times and situations slightly more conductive, but
> there was never a time where you could easily go into a shop and buy a
> Moog Modular and take it home try it return it (...actually I was in
> a shop in Japan now where you could do something like build your own
> Moog, Doepfer, RS, etc. then and there.. though I didn't inquire about
> their return policy)

Can you buy an Aston Martin or a Bristol at a shop across the road? The answer
is no, and you probably know why.

 

Your points are well taken. The Virus is a good synth (I could list every single synth, but I just didn't think it was necessary)
And I did mention Nord (meaning their most popular lead, and others I had not heard of) I really was not too interested in
SW synths as they can get a bit annoying to use. Not so nice to take a computer to a gig.
Of course I realize the JP8080 isn't the most elite sounding synth, but it is a great learning platform, as you have said.
The idea behind my purchase was to have a platform for creating sounds. I work on computers over 50+ hours a week,
it's nice to not stare at a screen for hours on end. I''l be damned if I am going to be on them for 80 hours, and deal with them
crashing or misbehaving constantly.


----- Original Message -----
From: N. Kent
To: isaotomita at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [isaotomita] Re:mellotrons


> > > Why don't you try getting a JP-8080 from roland.
> >
> > My advice is why don't you try listening to a lot of synths. I'd never
> > flat out reccomend one of those.

> I did listen to a lot of synths-

Okay then, thats the point I was trying to make, Its good for you but
I'd never tell people just to go get one. All I can say is I've played
one a bunch of times and even had a friend who got his JP-8000 months
before it was released, he wasn't playing it live the last time I caught
him. All I can say anmd recount is a real life and rather expensive
opportunity, I was at at music shop at lunch, it wasn't crowded and I
was able to go back and forth with the earlier JP-8000, a Nord Lead and
an AN1x, they all had something ok about them but the whole experience
was kind of depressing. I was thinking "Is this the best they can do"?
That evening I met up with a friend then working at another music shop
just to chat. "Hey nick, we have a Voyetra Eight in, you want to mess
with it?" -- damn that was in such a different league!

> A lot of the problem is those Moog's, Arp's, etc. are pretty old, expensive, and rare.
> The KORG MS-2000 and Nord and Oberheim synths are all nice instruments as well,
> but none seemed to have the feel of the Roland JP-8080.

As an aside you skip the Virus, Nord Modular and Reaktor (which of
course isn't hardware), all of which are immensely more interesting than
any of that.

I have listened to quite
> a bit of synths, and I own a few. Why would you not recommend one of these?
> I think that most synth users would like to spend less time creating sounds,
> and more time performing with them. To me, this device is a happy medium
> where you can create sounds, save them, and have the same control over them
> as you would with an analog synthesizer.

Yeah, thats probably me, I just like synths with sounds that excite me,
that have a lot of places to explore, I see a lot of commercial synths
now as primarily aiming primarily to satisfy people, not giving them
overly much to explore or deal with or collaborate with. Thats my
convenience point, I'd be full of crap to say out and out that all these
new units sound terrible, they don't they sound good enough to keep a
lot of people happy, my point is they help you a lot by being
convenient, not by being really inspiring or interesting.


> I am not saying that everything
> else is not a good synth, that is not what I am saying at all, it's just
> that in regards for performance for the money it is no doubt theNo#1 synth
> still being produced out there.

Yes you and many people are obviously satisfied, what comes out of it is
not crap or anything, its just that sort of common denominator sounds
and architecture (yes I know it has a couple of real extreme waves and
then the rest are lackluster simulations of plain oscs) it doesn't
really go anywhere interesting

>
> I stress the fact that is - still in production - says quite a bit for this module.

see my comments about not wanting to risk anything new. The only smart
comment I can make about that is the VCS3 has been in near continous
production about 3 decades longer


> I have a memorymoog that's broken, and when I get that working, (If I can ever
> get the stupid thing fixed-) which I hear is a constant problem with this and
> many other analog synths. The memorymoog was one of the first analog synths you could store patches on,
> but it is very old to say the least and the things go into disrepair very quickly, they constantly break,
> which is notorius for this and other analog synths.

err, nitpicking you are off by half a decade, I think the OB1 had the
first modern patch storage

but yes back in those days they did push things kind of hard and things
had bad failure rates, certainly some companies failed to a large extent
due to that. I guess thats is why big companies are wary about releasing
anything genuinely new anymore. Its so much easier to just release
something that can sell then release it again each year adding a feature
or 2.

> So just because a synth could do something 20 years ago, doesn'tmean it can
> still do it today! My roommate and I decided that it is probablynot worth
> it to even fix the memorymoog, it would cost more money and timethan the thing
> is worth.

they are worth quite a bit, and the very expensive Lintronics retrofit
done to it is considered by many in the business as the best polysynth
(though the Andromeda complicates the ranking)

But there is a point, no synth is good at everything or perfect so its
all deciding what works for you.

I just think timbre-wise much of what comes out of the new simulated
analogs is no improvement, it points people more toward medocrity than
creative solutions

So when is a new synth ever going to be "Good Enough" when compared
> to old synths? Everyone is "Oh yeah my Moog blah blah blah and my Arp blah blah
> blah" I know this sounds Cruel but - the companies DON'T even EXIST anymore.

Thats the thing the big companies that were creative either failed or
learned to be conservative and cater to songwriters and hobby bands.
Nothing wrong with them, except that it hurts creative synthesis. Then
there are the little companies. I've got a Serge, they are still around
just like 25 years ago (but pricey!)

Its true something always has to give when it comes to creative
technology. Something at that good price may either sound or feature
mediocre features. Something else my be unreliable, That great thing has
a hefty price, that company released the same thing 5 different times as
different products... etc. Thats how things work. I just question the
hype of new technology in an environment which has stabilized to
predominantly choosing something out there and making or more likely
simulating it and stopping there.


> If someone was to make a synth like those anymore - what would the cost of
> production be? Jupiter 6 - When was the last one of those made? I hate to Rain on a parade
> but WHERE can you find those? Ebay, where you will pay 5x what it is worth,
> and it's possibly broken, this is all IF the person even decidesto ship it
> to you? What about getting something that is still produced and supported,
> or at the very least - the company is still around. If not a JP-8080 then

You seized on a point I was not making. Its a good point, but I wasn't
making that point. My points were:

1. its predominantly a simulation of something existing, so if Tomita
had design input it wasn't realy design, it was more opinion.

2. I was teasing Roland for not attempting their surely more challenging
and harder to digitaly simulate Jupiter 8 (because its less IC chip
reliant and has more side effects from a hot signal path). Kind of like
why Yamaha chose a less chalenging Curtis IC chip based Prophet 5 as the
basis of their simulation instead of a CS-80... there is less
interesting and quirky character in the original making the simulation
that much easier

> What else would you recommend? A Nord, and Oberheim? There are ahandful of
> other synths, ranging from $700 to $3,000. I just think this is the best "Happy Meduim"
> synthesis device for someone just learning about analog synthesis.

I can't help to tease the "Happy Meduim". Thats why I have that my
theory the convenience is one factor in spoiling contemporary electronic
music for listeners. I'm not saying that the people making the music
aren't satisfied, thats kind of the problem, they are satisfied enough
that they need nothing better.

Lets see there are waldorf things that are kind of nice even below $700,
not nice enough for mey to buy but kind of nice (I guess I did buy their
VST plug in). The Virus is not the perfect synth but is feature filled
and sounds way nicer than I expected it to sound. Reaktor is not for
everyone but has great potential. The Andromeda is more difficult to get
sounds out of than it should be but is certainly pretty exciting.
Milwaukee is the capital of esoteric modulars with Serge and Wiard being
based there, I've used both and even visited Grant so I'm not just
re-writing what I hear on the net, the list goes on. I found the Absynth
software quite interesting recently.

It is a great tool, and something different coming into the
digital age of "sample
> playback" synths that makes people realize that analog synthesiscan also be
> a lot of fun, sound cool as well.

Yes, all true, but its not worth a 15 year wait! Again I'm not saying
they are plain bad, its just that their okay abilities rub off onto
helping music made with them more likely to be just okay.

> I do agree with your "Instant Gratification"
> - if you will view on creativity - I have this view on society -they don't want
> to put the time into getting a good sound, nor are they alotted time to do this
> today. Everything is rush rush rush, bigger better faster.

yes, today we have the Xtreme (fill in the blank) not the excellent
(fill in the blank)

But I even wish we had that with synths. Maybe Sherman kind of did that,
but they are this tiny company

the "new" synth is either the last 3 old synths in one box or this
"incredible" simulation of something they now realize wasn't such a bad idea.


> It seems like society
> feels the need today to SQUASH CREATIVITY by whatever means necessary. I spent
> 4 or 5 hours creating ONE patch on the JP-8080. Others I spent 1-2 hours creating.

There is definite satisfaction on getting something just right.

>
> Also what stores are left to go buy musical instruments at? Are they not dwindling? I
> mean we have guitar center and mars who carry a few synths, and musician's friend
> and Sweetwater which are mail order SO you can't try the stuff out before you
> buy it...

I'm sure there were times and situations slightly more conductive, but
there was never a time where you could easily go into a shop and buy a
Moog Modular and take it home try it return it (...actually I was in
a shop in Japan now where you could do something like build your own
Moog, Doepfer, RS, etc. then and there.. though I didn't inquire about
their return policy)

I think you and others are making a bit of a mistake. Moog kind of
started it with the Mini. -- the idea the synths are realistically
consumer goods and should be sold like them. I'm not trying to be
elitist at all, but some things just don't work like consumer goods or
you get consumer quality. Okay for some not okay for others. I'm not
saying its not good if its in shops and certainly not to make not being
in shops a critera for goodness, but for some stuff you do kind of want
to sacrifice the convenience for something good. There are fewer ways,
but certainly one can't say their only option is to buuy blindly

I am not going to blow $2800 on something I don't like. I will say
> that you do have to admit that in the sample-infested world of today that credit
> is due to someone who is still manufacturing a REAL synth, not just a sample
> playback machine. That you cannot deny. I only recommended the JP8080 Sample
> Cd to see if the people liked the basic sounds of the synth, - acheap way to
> try it before you buy it if you will - because trying it out in the store is
> not always easy (not hooked up, etc. which leads me back to the instant
> gratification and amount of service available from any dealers today)

yeah that is a kind of a decent $30 way to get a demo of a synth.'

By the way does anyone have the 1996 album Roland commissioned Ken Ishii
to do for the JP8000? It was only at Roland dealers for sale to the
public or something, its not a label release

Anyway it was just a little too anti what classic Tomita is all about to
sit still and read

I will say
> there is nothing more gratifying when playing an analog synth sound then
> reaching over, and changing the envelope, the resonance filters,depth and
> rate of the LFO's. The Sample CD's don't compare at all to that.On the other hand,
> I would not necessairily have bought a JP-8080 just hearing the Sample CD.
> I had to play with it, for hours and hours before I bought mine.However a
> Yamaha AN1X - sure - not enough knobs to justify buying the realthing
> - not enough control. A Korg MS-2000 is definitely worth buying the real thing
> the amount of knobs to tweak is excellent. I bought this to create my own sounds,
> and not just to listen to the canned sounds it contains. That's what my sampler is for,
> and the other sound modules - the STATIC(as in unchanging)cannedsounds I will need to use
> in some musical works.

Yes, I'm sure we agree on the sampler part, I just think those
simulations are what I've been ranting about, convenient and mediocre.

I was a bit harsh on the simulated modulars. I think they are just
brilliant for inexpensively trying out some very complex synth designs.
The real flaw besides never a 1:1 ratio of real knobs is a real modular
capitalizes on chaotic systems. Though one person I e-mailed is doing
real research and belieives it can be done via extreme oversampling, the
achilles heel of the simulations not properly simulating analog is the
vitrtual synths calculate a sample by looking at all your simulated
modules in order. As soon as something recursive occurs, as simple as a
2 modules modulating eachother, you don't have an accurate simulation
any more and you don't have that unique sound either

> I wonder if this is a good synth buying equation or Formula -
> IF a synth has good sounds and fits style of music on presets that you would like to play,
> and has flexibility so you can create my own sounds OR change the preset sounds with the turn of a knob
> and it is well designed mechanically - Then Buy it! But many other practical considerations are this - How
> much room do you have to store these or set them up? How many mixers do you need to have hooked up just to
> play with the things (I have 3 daisy chained, a Korg 168RC, Fostex VM200, and a MAckie 1604, and all
> inputs are being used by some device or another).

okay, for what its worth my demo equasion is --

Does it make exciting sounds that you can actually use.

Buy what you are passionate about if at all possible, avoid the good
deals unless you have extra room and cash, the good enough will usually
be just that, good enough for a short time, its rare to find what's
really good in whats good enough

if you don't hear anything remotely like a sound you like, its extremely
likely all the programming you can muster will ever get you that sound

can your creativity interface with it?

nick

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on 29/9/01 1:54 pm, Charles at charel196 at y... wrote:

> Hi Nick
> I had read someplace that Tomita had recorded his
> own tapes for his tron using a Japanese choir.He even
> had humming sounds.

Incidentally, the humming sound at the beginning of 'Venus' off The Planets
isn't any kind of complex synth patch or Mellotron, but is Tomita himself,
humming.

Sometimes, things are exactly what they appear to be...

Ben

-----

My Freelancers Portfolio: http://benjaminward.freelancers.net/index.html
Korg Analogue Synthesizers: http://www.benward.net/korg