Debate Should "Under God" Be Taken out of the Pledge Of Allegiance?

Yes, that is an idea. Shame it doesn't explain why people are, instead of fighting to make it optional, fighting to omit the words "Under God".

Though then again perhaps the innate feeling of need for perfection and absolute power of the human race is to blame.

 

You misunderstand. I'm talking about the PEOPLE of US, not the country itself. And when is it a waste of time? You have your freedom of religion where you might not have in other places. What's so bad about having such a slogan in the pledge (which is quite optional these days) and on the money?

Destroying opposition? Woah woah there, are we exaggerating now? We aren't KILLING these people. The Christians are the majority. The idea of anti-communism spawned this God thing, and by far, Christians will probably want to keep it. And since Christians outnumber the others, and most bills are done by votes, well, guess what's staying.

*points to Amon_Sena's retort*

No crap. But you do not look that back. Immigrant in our terms today are anyone who is foreign - from a certain year on. Nobody can actually define immigrants that way from any given year. Thus, immigrants are those who are still foreign, haven't had gained their citizenships, and so on.

 

Well I'd rather they be omitted from the base version too. If someone choses to say the god bit on their own, great, but as far as official pledges go...

 

And Under God is a policy, not constituting truth. The Pledge and the 'Under God' were implemented to both oust communism and bolster Christian Society. It has only been unreasonably used as an excuse to oust believers of other religions as well, and that is why it is being seen as unreasonable. Did the government mean to remind the people of the forced conversion with their policy of that inserting? Probably not.

The minority doesn't matter to the society. I never said anything about the individuals.

I believe that we've done away with the racial differences in formality a long time ago, though it might not be so in the practical world. As you said, the phrase was established to fight communism, but now, as the Christians (the majority) are pleased with it, what's to stop them from pushing it on?

It's called propaganda, and countries rarely care about policies when they are implementing propaganda. You know, they can always use loopholes to cover their butts, so they'll never actually get the short end of the stick. They can contradict themselves all they want if enough people don't care. That's the corruption of government, after all.

The other countries are currently looking for any hole in our government or such that will allow them to poke fun at us and ultimately ridicule us into a lower thing. I mean, every country has a sense of distrust upon the US now, seeing what we are doing with ourselves. The removal of the 'Under God' would both take away something that may have held the nation 'together', to an extent, somehow as a 'Christian country', as you said before. Yes, that is a contradicting term and all, but they do have to appear as imposing in some way.

See above.

Of course. In the business of industry and economics, when the subject of money comes up, morals are a little-cared for factor.

 

I'm pretty sure that we all realize this now. But, you know, our funny Christian society'll likely see it as an attack on their credibility or some such if the part is removed.

 

But the fact remains that America is not a Christian society.

Everyone else, who make up a fair chunk of America?
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/features/religion_survey.htm

...aaaaaaand you would just sit by and let this corruption continue?

...Yes, because mean words are a lot more powerful than economies and militaries. Believe me, not that many nations really respect the states. Canada is your biggest neighbour and we have an entire documentary devoted to stupid americans.

Y'know, the Nazi regime held Germany together; that didn't make it a good thing.

...So are you or are you not in favor of a government that has morals?

 

America is not completely composed of Christians, and its Constitution states that there is religious diversity, but is that going to stop the Christians from taking advantage of their majority to win?

Well, seeing as the 'all results' deviate a lot less from 'Christian results' than they do from 'everyone else results', I'd still say that Christians make up a chunk that is quite a bit larger.

Like I can do anything, eh? That's the thought of the populace within all the years while these corruptions gone on. Watergate, for instance. People didn't re-act until the media made it so. Many other seeds of corruption were also sown without much of a reaction - until either the media gets hold of it, or it is too late.

I'm well aware of that, and I pretty much said that last post. Because of the states' continuous enforcement of democracy and the ways that they have gone to do this despite previous history, to 'fight communism', other nations don't really respect the US now. The third-world nations hold fear. The more powerful nations hold frustration and a feeling of annoyance at the actions of the US.

It made it a good thing.... for Germans. It is obvious that it was a bad thing for more or less everybody else, but it was designed to benefit Germans heavily above everything else.

Governments have morals? You were talking of money for morals inside an industrial environment, not in a political environment. On the issue of governmental morals, I heavily doubt that a constant state of morals are actually held there. The opinion of morals in politics change oh-so-often because of the differentiating views and the voices of the politicians.

 

Wow...Valant Rapitor and Nephilim_X go at it in every debate...

Just cahnge it to "under god" a debate between V Rapitor and Neph and that would make it perfect....

Just kidding you guys but it seems that everywhere i go i see you two with oppoosing ideas...Thats good this forum is great for you....

Edit: You guys got to remeber though....not only christians beleive in God or a god but many other religions do too so dont forget buddhism and the other religions that beleive in a god okay....

 

You know not every Christian is going to vote one way or another, right? Furthermore, the only thing Americans get to vote on, unless I'm mistaken, is their political leaders. IIRC no other sort of referendums are held, so that argument is null and void.

Apathy is the exact sort of attitude that lets this crap breed. On another board I ended up starting a small "riot" online because a moderator encouraged a suicide and I found that unbecoming of a mod; a few days later he was demodded and I was made his replacement. Granted this isn't going to translate directly into real life but enough #s and you can overcome them. You also may have to start small and local.

So if it doesn't matter, why fear we're opening a new hole for them to attack? It'd actually improve relationships with several European nations (except - oh no! The Vatican!!!) given how they're trying to word the EU Constitution.

...Yeah, those german jews were overjoyed as were anyone who disagreed...

Ideally yes; obviously they aren't going to be beacons of morality but I'd at least like it if the ideals America was founded on were upheld.

And you still haven't really countered the fact that what Congress did (representing America as a Christian nation) was unconstitutional.

 

...We're going at it in one other debate and agree in another discussion. That's the limit of our interaction. Wise up.

Except that the god mentioned in the pledge is the Christian god and thats in the words of the people who put it there.

Which has no god.

Well since you admit there are many different religious beliefs you obviously can conclude that the nation is NOT united under god and hence your point is nullified. Besides, why should you shoe-horn aethiests, which I believe comprise a full 10% of the US's population, into pledging to an entity they don't believe in?

 

i meant Muslim not Buddhism.Also there is a god in the jewish beielf and also the chatholic belief. How do you know the phrase Under god means under the christian god? Also i am not Aethieist and i do beleive in a god but am not christian....

 

Catholicism is a sect of Christianity; Muslim views jews and Christians as having skewed views on God, same with Jews on Muslims and Christians.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

Read and learn, young one.

 

Personally, I think the easiest way to deal with all of this is to just take the pledge out of schools period. If kids want to go home and recite it to their flags there, great for them.

See, I feel that they over use it in schools, making you recite it everyday(or week). It loses any meaning that it had to you when you first heard it. It becomes some stupid thing that you have to stop talking, and stand up for. You'd be surprised how fast most people say it, if at all.

As always the people that are making the fuss about it are the ones who don't get to experience it everyday. The one aetheist father who sued the schools in I belive it was CA, didn't even have custody of his daughter, and she was being raised Christian.

The pledge may have once filled hearts with patriotic pride, but now it has been worn down to a meaningless bunch of words. The words, "Under God", I'll bet aren't even noticed by most children as the rattle of the words as fast as they can so they can slump back into their seats, and do what ever they were doing before.