Debate Utopia

Of course, we could always refer to the good ole' statement of "There is no black and white, only different shades of grey."

 

You still have your individuality, it's just modified to our purposes.

Well I think a very fair base to work from is that of humanist morality - that which does not respect basic human rights without extremely good cause (for example, sacrificing one mans life to save a millions) is evil. It is also logical (the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few).

So? Just because he views it that way doesn't make it so. If I thought I was Napolean, that wouldn't make me Napolean.

Did his act violate the rights of others?

Or perhaps we're well aware that violence is the last refuge of the weak minded (Edit: unless of course you need to defend yourself). I've been in fights, but I can't recall a single one where I was the agressor.

 

So you think Charles Manson was just a very dark grey?

 

Yes... as well as a psychologically-mind-bending genius. But besides that... yes, yes I do.

 

Being too buzzed to know better, know worse, like something that shouldn't be liked and yadda yadda is not individuality. Hell, that's not even really living. That's being too drugged to be any thing other than simple existance. If I liked being high, I could go out and buy weed. Or any number of mind altering "illegal substances". But I'd rather not, thanks. Anyway. You've gotten off topic, "hon". We're talking about a utopia. Not control. :sweat2:

 

I see no reason to consider his murders anything but evil.

 

Yet you, your boyfriend, me, everyone here, is to some extent not really thinking for ourselves. We are all influenced by our environment - there is no such thing as total complete freedom and bias-free growth.

To turn your "shades of grey" quote around, isn't everything just different levels of being under the influence?

Ah, but ma chere, I am arguing the possibility of creating utopia, be it via evil methods or not.

 

And I see no reason to consider them "evil" rather than the poor choices of a depraved yet maniacally strategic individual. You may call that evil... I call it.. what was the term you used? "a very dark grey"?

 

Why? They provided no benefits, at all. There's no "white" paint in this grey mixture.

 

Technically speaking... it's all basis of opinion, who KNOWS what was going through his mind at this time and Hell, for all we know the people he had following him thought what he was doing was right. Using your logic of Good and Evil, this would supply the white paint to add to the "Evil" everyone else saw (the Black paint), making it a grey.

Of course, as I said.. that is my opinion. Though this is a debate, really about Utopia not whether Charles Manson was evil or just depraved.

 

Evil methods? The methods you're talking about aren't that evil. Depend on whomever's point of view. That being mine at the moment. Evil? Not really. I am not going to bother denying bias towards at least one thing or another, or denying that my environment affected how I behave today, but regardless. It wasn't forced upon me, it was engrained through years of growth, experience and learning.

Where does conflict begin? More often than not between two differing beliefs, opinions, etcetera. Such as... "MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOUR GOD." You would have to strip that away, that way everyone thought just like everyone else. Good little sheep. Thus removing both conflict and individuality.

 

So neither of you think that a violation of basic human rights without some sort of tangible, logicially concluded benefit is a bad act? RJ, let me ask you something - if you were raped, would you still think it was just another shade of grey?

Obviously there is something to be said for moral relativism, but I'm hardly going to dismiss, say, a murder of a person and consumption of his flesh just because his murderer came from a society where cannibalism is accepted before he came here.

 

I probably would. I say probably because it's never happened to me, so I'm not going to judge right away how I'd feel about the situation. Would I still consider it a shade of gray? Yes, I would. I would feel it's wrong. Rape *is* wrong, I never said it wasn't. That perception is an opinion. It isn't fact. But evil? Evil is just a label to slap on something when someone thinks something else is bad.

 

You do realise that under humanism (which is what I'm involved in) "evil" = bad and harmful, right?

 

Then I guess everything can be evil since everything can be bad or harmful. I'm not an expert on Humanism or such so I can't really say.. is that how it works? (Note: No sarcasm involved here)

 

I'm not a part of "humanism", so why should that concern me?

 

Honestly Amon, why argue if you don't even know what it's about? I thought you knew better.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/HumanistCode.shtml

Go and read.

Anyway, you're confusing potential with reality. I have the POTENTIAL to snap my housemates neck like a plastic spoon, yet I am not DOING that act, hence I am not evil. Once again... if said act is violating human rights and it has no justification in the form of benefits for others, then its going to be evil. If said act violates human rights but it was for a good cause, it's in the grey area (for example, lets say a doctor performs an experiment which kills 40 people, but results in a cure which saves 1000 lives. He wasn't moral in doing the act, but he was not completely evil either. Now lets say someone commits the murder of 40 people simply because they didn't like them. That is evil.)

 

Because you're trying to argue over my label, duh.

Edit: Wait, you don't think that a code that upholds human rights for all is a good thing and don't want to be involved in it?

 

Because you had only just brought up Humanism, that is why. You expect people to know everything about you when you say so little. Really, I thought you knew better.

So, let's take for example this doctor.. he is not classified as evil, accordingly... but would he then be classified as "good"? If not, then, what WOULD he be classified as?

And we have been arguing over opinions.. that is what Debating IS. For all intents and purposes we can say that you are arguing OUR labels, thus if we are in the wrong, you are as well.

Though I guess if you expected us to know every thing, perhaps you were expecting too much from us. After all, I guess we can't all be perfect like you.

[EDIT] Well.. actually I suppose with your idea of the powerful toxin that'll turn the world into a Utopia, yeah, I guess we all can. [/EDIT]

 

If I wanted to be involved with it, the chances are that I'd already know about it. Does that answer your question?