Current Affairs Terri Schiavo

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by That guy!, Mar 11, 2005.

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  1. That guy!

    That guy! Expecting Father

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    Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 3.
    "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

    That's why. And you know, at one point women weren't considered persons either. It's call humanism, where you believe that a person is a person regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation, or ability (or lack thereof) and we should all be treated equally. Even for those who are not capable of interacting with other people, that isn't a logical reason to kill them.
     
    #21
    That guy!, Mar 24, 2005
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  2. Ciel

    Ciel Unoa Freak
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    So those who are incapable of interacting with others should be eradicated?

    Some people consider those with Altzheimer's to not be the same people anymore. But they are still alive. It's true Terri isn't the same person, but she is still alive. As far as my reading of Schiavo, she isn't an empty shell. People have laws even against starving dogs. It's truly sad when one thinks of space, time and energy when it comes to a human life. If this continues, it opens the door to greater evils. Such as killing helpless old people who cannot contribute to society anymore, the mentally challenged, etc. Why keep them around? Is that not a waste of space, time, money and energy?

    What is it that you believe in?


    Back to an earlier comment, ashes of a 100 dollar bill equal a dead person. Paper money, if retaining it's form, is still worth something, as is a human being. When a human being loses it's form, it does die. Yet, hopefully we still think of the human, and not the money and time.. and energy etc. it put forth to keep it.

    One last comment, it's a very difficult situation, money, life.. What really are Schiavo's wishes? Just stop and think though, this is a human life we are talking about. All she needs help with is to be fed. We can think of it being humaine to end her suffering, we can think it a 'natural death' to have her starve to death 'peacefully' if that's even a peaceful and good death. But nothing beats life I would think. Even if it's stuck living in a hospital bed and not being able to verbally communicate. Those who care for her are around her. Most of them want her to live; they have hope. It's hard to watch someone you love suffer. It all comes down to Hope, Faith, Humility and Patience.
     
    #22
    Ciel, Mar 24, 2005
  3. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    But Terri isn't coming back. Everything about her is gone. This isn't just a crumbled 100 dollar bill; this is a 100 dollar bill with everything printed on it wiped off, then torn into seperate pieces.

    Terri is, at this point, a lump of flesh that breathes and pumps blood. Without assistance she will not survive. She will live out her days with not a single concious thought, and no potential to return from beyond.

    There's something to be said for quality of life.

    The person, Terri, is gone, and will never come back. All that remains now is the lump of protein that was once her body. Now it's simply a body.

    Edit: I think everyone should read this article. Here's a nice little quote...

     
    #23
    Nephilim_X, Mar 25, 2005
  4. Reisti Skalchaste

    Reisti Skalchaste New Member

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    Thank you, Neph. I agree with you completely. You've said many things I wouldn't have been able to say, and I thank you.

    I suppose I did imply that, huh? I meant, those who are incapable of even being concious, those who are incapable of having a life, should be allowed to die. Not eradicated, but let go.

    Has anyone ever seen that movie "Who's life is it anyway?" It's not the best movie, but the main character, Ken Harrison, suffers a horrible auto accident, and becomes quadriplegic. He can't live without assistance, and can't do anything on his own. At one point, when the nurses are turning him, he starts to fall off the bed, and almost breaks his neck, because he's landing head first, with all of his body weight on top of it. He can't do anything to stop it.

    Anyway, thoughout the whole movie, Ken is fighting the courts so he can be allowed to die. At the end, he gets his wish. He's taken off of all the life support machines, and he is allowed to die. Why should Terri be denied the same release? Why should she be kept alive, probably against her will, when she has no chance of ever even waking up?

    Neph said it best. Why should we use the time and energy to prolong the life of someone who will never actually live again, when we can use that effort to save many other needy lives? Why should Terri lie there, dead to the world, but kept alive artificially, when we can save other lives, lives not already lost, with the same effort? It's not a waste to keep someone alive, it is a waste to let others die when they can be saved. Terri cannot be healed, she cannot recover, should we not turn our efforts to those who can?

    I believe in what I say. That a person's life is determined by them alone. How it is lived, led, and ended should all be determined by them, and them alone. However, Terri is not alive. She may live, but the woman known as Terri is dead. She'll never come back.

    That, we do not know. But who, in their right mind, would want to live the way she does. If you can call that living. Think about this, Ciel. You're trapped, in a dark room. You can't see or hear anything, you can't move, you can't even think. You can do nothing but lie there, kept alive interminably by some machine. Would you want to be in that situation? Would you want to live on, despite never being able to get up and move, or see, or interact with the world around you in any way? Would you not wish just to be released?

    It's not just that Terri isn't able to verbally communicate, it's that she can't interact, in any way, with the world, at all. They say she reacts to intense pain, I believe, but that's a natural reaction, not anything involving thought. If you put your hand on a red-hot grill, you'd pull it away before even thinking about it, right?

    Your quote is well-chosen. I'm having a hard time coming up with a response to it. But Terri doesn't have a life. She lives, yes, but she doesn't have a life. Liberty? She'll never move on her own, she'll never talk to anyone again, she'll never even awaken. I don't wish to sound mean, but why is it so important that her parents have to keep her body alive, despite the fact that her very being is already dead? (This is the best response I can come up with right now)

    I've never wanted to kill anyone in my life. And I don't now. As I said, it's called "letting them go." Terri died 15 years ago. Her body has been kept alive all this time, but her mind, her soul, has already gone. What's left is the vessel, a water jug, emptied of the liquid.

    Yes, I realize that people have said she's not an empty shell, but, what gives you the ability to say this? What evidence do you have that she isn't an empty shell?
     
    #24
    Reisti Skalchaste, Mar 25, 2005
  5. That guy!

    That guy! Expecting Father

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    I never said that she has a chance at all to become normal again, but then again, why does she have to?

    I've volunteered with others who are in a state like her, it won't be my cup of tea to see the law allow them to be "let go" because they don't have a quality of life that is comparable to the rest of us. But, why is it that she is just a body and an empty shell.. are all persons with mental disabilities empty shells? Are they not even human and this legitimizes letting them be "let go"?

    I brought this up earlier but didn't go into details. Women were once not considered humans and this legitimized society to not allow them to vote, and their husbands to even abuse them. And certain other groups weren't considered human either, and this legitimized using them as slaves.

    Just because they aren't the same as us, does that make them not human? Does it automatically mean that their life isn't worth as much, or worth living, as ours? no.
     
    #25
    That guy!, Mar 25, 2005
  6. Ciel

    Ciel Unoa Freak
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    Obviously this thread is going nowhere, because it's our beliefs on the matter of human life, and who has the right to take it away. I obviously don't think I have the right to commit suicide or decide if I should die or not if I am sick. The life I have is a gift and I will always treat it as such. Every life is a wonderful gift. You believe that the person has the right to decide, well the issue here as well is that Schiavo isn't the one choosing. Plus we are talking about Terry here, not all those other people that can be saved if we stopped wars, etc. I feel that's even irresponsible to flip it to discussing others. So one life over a million. I see it that if we don't care about one life, then it leads to us not caring about thousands-millions.

    And in response to your question, What evidence do you have that Terry is an empty shell? Don't flip it around saying those that want to keep Schiavo alive are not even considering how Schiavo must feel "trapped, not being able to see or hear anything, not able to move (or think?). Not being able to do anything but lie there, kept alive interminably by some machine, never being able to get up and move, or see, or interact with the world" because turned around to their situation, they see their life as precious no matter what state.

    And another thing, Shinryu, I certainly do not think Neph needs all those compliments and backing up. He can hold out on his own. It's the only thing other than the topic that's sickening and hopefully you didn't intend it to be that way.

    One more thing, It's certainly very horrible what happened to Terry Schiavo. Yet, the decision has already been made. We can only look to see what happens in the future with other related situations.
     
    #26
    Ciel, Mar 25, 2005
  7. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    Actually, Terri wouldn't. Do you know why? Because she no longer has a cerebral cortex. Here is a page on the cerebral cortex: http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/functional.html

    Now consider that Terri has lost ALL OF THOSE.

    All she has is her brainstem. The reptile part of the brain. The most basic functions to survive, and she can't even swallow with that. She isn't thinking "My life is precious", because she isn't thinking at all.

    What's the point of keeping her alive? We could easily harvest her kidneys and liver (and maybe other things) provided they're in good condition and give those to people who have a chance at actually doing something.
     
    #27
    Nephilim_X, Mar 25, 2005
  8. Kaiyon

    Kaiyon Grim Reaper

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    Well, not to be mean or anything, but its just that some people are too hopefull and dont really trust science. I think they think she will miraculously come back and it will all be like it was 15 years ago.
    Sorry, but she ain't coming back. I know this sounds pesimist, but i think sometimes we need to rely more in science theories.
    She's brain dead.

    - Kaiyon
     
    #28
    Kaiyon, Mar 25, 2005
  9. Reisti Skalchaste

    Reisti Skalchaste New Member

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    You're right. I don't think any of us will be able to convince the others of our side of view. But for the most part, I agree with you. Yes, I believe that a person's life is theirs and theirs alone, and, if anyone decides what happens to it, it should be them. And I do wish that Terri were capable of making that decision on her own, as Ken Harrison was in Who's Life is it Anyway? But, again, that's not possible.

    I bet he doesn't mind. :p Seriously, I'm stating my own opinion, which does differ from his on some issues, but, it seems they overlap a lot here. I figure, if he says something that I would've said, why repeat it?

    I don't like that they decided to starve her to death. Even with no thought processes at all, it still feels wrong to end her 'life' that way. There are better ways to let her go. But let us hope that in the future, there are no more situations like this. I know that it's a sad thing, and that it must hurt for everyone involved, and I don't want anyone to have to experience the same pain that Terri's relatives must be suffering.
     
    #29
    Reisti Skalchaste, Mar 25, 2005
  10. Ciel

    Ciel Unoa Freak
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    No one said she was going or thought she was going to be miraculously back to the way she was in 1990.

    I read that Terri was in a coma, yet discussed this with others and I found out Terri was never in a coma, so I decided to read more articles on the issue.

    I viewed movie files of Terri Schiavo. I didn't expect Terri to be like this, according to some things I read: http://www.terrisfight.net/
    There are a few to look at. Please view them She doesn't look like an uninteractive vegetable to me.

    When Michael Schiavo appeared on the television show, Larry King Live, he said that dying by dehydration was 'dying with dignity.' He told King, "It's painless, and probably the most natural way to die. It is a very easy way to die, probably the second best way to die, the first being an aneurysm."

    A physician in another case stated that death by dehydration to be
    "cruel and violent"

    I listed a few things that would occur with the removal of a feeding tube:

    The lining of the nose might crack and cause the nose to bleed.
    The skin would hang loose on the body and become dry and scaly.
    The urine would become highly concentrated, leading to burning of the bladder.
    The lining of the stomach would dry out and the sufferer would experience dry heaves and vomiting.
    The body temperature would become very high.
    The brain cells would dry out, causing convulsions.
    The respiratory tract would dry out, and the thick secretions that would
    result could plug the lungs and cause death.
    At some point within five days to three weeks the major organs, including the lungs, heart, and brain, would give out and the patient would die.

    These excerpts below came from this article:
    http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/mar/05032309.html


    "Terri's condition is consistently described as that of a 'vegetable' by news media. But the definition of 'persistent vegetative state' has been disputed by bioethicists for years. Some doctors believe that there is no such condition and that what is known to medical science about the human brain is too unreliable to trust such blanket labels.

    Terri's nurses have testified and gone to the media with their eye witness accounts of Terri's ability to interact with staff and visitors and respond to spoken words - such as opening her eyes wide upon request - and her attempts to speak and communicate[...]

    Empire Journal reports that when asked by her parents and their attorneys if she wanted to live, Terri Schiavo made two attempts to say "Yeah," then began to cry when told that her husband, Michael Schiavo, would be removing her feeding tube on orders of Judge Greer, which would result in her death by starvation."

    This next article is shocking. It’s the affidavit from a nurse who worked with Terri Schiavo. She discusses how she had to follow Michael Schiavo’s orders, and that no rehabilitation was ever done for Terri while she was there, even though prior to this, Mr. Schiavo received almost a million from the courts for rehabilitation: http://www.rense.com/general63/aff.htm

    She stated "I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing." She also said Terri was very responsive and said words yet, "Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended." She also said "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death.
    Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that ***** gonna die?" She recorded these in the chart, but they were also deleted. He also would be happy if Terri became ill, and state how he was going to be rich when she died.
    Michael would visit Terri alone with the door locked. When the nurse came back in, Terri would be in a scared hypoglycemic shock. Her glucometer reading would be too low to even register. This happened at least five times and she believed Michael had injected Terri with insulin.


    In this article, from Fox News, Dr. William Hammesfahr, a neurologist who worked on Terri, states “She is not in a coma. She did not have a heart attack. She is not in a coma presently. She absolutely can be rehabilitated. There's no question about that.”

    They also discussed her so called 1990 ‘heart-attack’ which left her severely brain damaged. There is evidence she had a neck injury and that she did not suffer from a heart attack but ribs and other bones suffered fractures. Mr. Schiavo stated Terri Schiavo having potassium by using diet pills. Records show she did not suffer heart attacks which potassium can induce. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101458,00.html

    This article gives background information on Michael Schiavo: http://www.zimp.org/stuff/ Indicating he had problems with unemployment and would outspend Terri's money she earned. He was a very intimidating man who had rages of anger against mostly women. His CPR training could have re-started Terri's heart yet he did not turn her over to clear her airway the night she collapsed.

    The truth is, Michael Schiavo found Terri, we do not know what caused her collapse, he was known to have fits of rage against women, he denied any rehab on Terri, at this time, it could have helped her,

    This article, http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/Thomasmorelawcenter.pdf states there is medical evidence through bone scans that she had suffered several physical traumas and had thought to be a victim of domestic abuse. (Read end of page 4 and all of page 5) That Mr. Schiavo received 700,000 dollars for rehab, never used it and immediately after receiving the money placed a "Do not ressucitate" order on Terri's chart. He left at least one infection untreated as well.

    This is the Current Affairs forum, not the Debates forum. Issues like How did Terri become this way and is Michael Schiavo hiding something need to be discussed. It's completely ridiculous how something like this can even happen to someone, and that there are people who do this to someone and can get away with it.
     
    #30
    Ciel, Mar 25, 2005
  11. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    But the problem here is that such videos were recorded after hours of sitting there, saying "Terri, Terri, Terri" and waiting for a response. It's like shouting at an oak tree to drop an acorn, and then editing out the past four days when an acorn does drop.

    I like how they say "person will die" in several parts. That IS the objective of removing the feeding tube. But if it's that big a deal, fine, just gas her.

    I call bullocks. She has no cerebral cortex; she cannot comprehend language.

    I don't care if her husband is a prick.

    She can be rehabilitated with the part of the brain responsible for all higher functions gone? She isn't going to grow a new one; I think the fact that it's on a conservative tv station is also rather telling.

    That's too bad, but it doesn't change the fact that Terri is the way she is now and has no chance of recovery.

    If he was responsible for it, I don't think he should get away with it, but I still think Terri needs to die.
     
    #31
    Nephilim_X, Mar 25, 2005
  12. Reisti Skalchaste

    Reisti Skalchaste New Member

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    I don't have anything to say in regards to Ciel's post, since, for the most part, I still agree with Neph. But this just came up on the Agora, and I thought I'd quote a post or two from there.

    (Actually, I was working backwards. :p The first quote here was the last posted there.) I have to say that, for the most part, I agree with these people as well. I hope what they had to say can shed some light on this discussion.
     
    #32
    Reisti Skalchaste, Mar 27, 2005
  13. Nightmare

    Nightmare Chaos Rules

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    Living like a vegetable is bad but suffering through hunger until death leisure hand comes to do its job is much more worse if her death is chosen as starvation than they are some of the sickest people that can do that no one wait no thing has to go through stavation its one of the most horriable ways to die if she must have death let it be gas or a bullet to the head quick and painless is how everyone wants to die not a prolonged death
     
    #34
    Nightmare, Mar 27, 2005
  14. Reisti Skalchaste

    Reisti Skalchaste New Member

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    True, I wish they would find a better way for her to go than to starve her. Maybe if they got a set of defibrilators? "200 joules, charged, clear, B-ZORT" it's over. :p

    ...I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have made light of such a situation. The joke just went into my head, and I had to use it.
     
    #35
    Reisti Skalchaste, Mar 27, 2005
  15. That guy!

    That guy! Expecting Father

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    I think the debate here is pretty much over. She's going to die, pretty much. I'm still for the ideal that a human is a human no matter what their cognitive abilities are, disability rights comes with the program I'm studying. Terri is protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act, http://www.sba.gov/ada/adaact.txt, but this has been ignored. Starving an animal in Florida would be considered cruelty, so it's just kind of sick that a person, even without consciousness, would be allowed to be starved.

    What's crazy is that Mike's lawyers are saying that she's dying in a painless and dignified way and looks serene and beautiful. Her parents, on the other hand, relate her to an Auschwitz victim (I don't agree with the relation they used) - But, her eyes are caving in, her tongue and eyes are bleeding and her skin is flaking. I think that's closer to how a person who hasn't had food or water for a week would look..
     
    #36
    That guy!, Mar 27, 2005
  16. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    The best part is, the body can't even really react to its starving in any sense. It IS serene.
     
    #37
    Nephilim_X, Mar 27, 2005
  17. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    #38
    Nephilim_X, Mar 31, 2005
  18. Nightmare

    Nightmare Chaos Rules

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    wow that kinda sends a message south parks the death angel for people in coma's...and a movie of her hmm who would play her Hillary Duff :p
     
    #39
    Nightmare, Mar 31, 2005
  19. Nephilim_X

    Nephilim_X New Member

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    Ha ha Hillary Duff doesn't have the build to pull off the feeding tube removal scene with any sort of believability.
     
    #40
    Nephilim_X, Mar 31, 2005
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