Debate Abortion

well i would imagine quite a few overlap..

 

erm.. he's christian.. so yes.. he does actually

masturbation is a sin after all..

besides sperm are not alive, nor are they "vessels of life". life cannot happen without an egg and a sperm, thus a period isn't a murder any more than an ejaculation is..

im sorry but this has got to be one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard in my life..
practically EVERYONE masturbates anyway, and look at the amount of teen pregnancies now..

 

People just need to keep it in their pants, then. The most effective means of birth control is abstinence. Teen pregnancies result from hormonally-challenged little boys and little girls who have deluded themselves into thinking that their boyfriend of the week loves them and will never leave them if she has sex with him. And then he does leave, right after. Paints a lovely picture of my gender, doesn't it?
As for calling my comment idiotic, I was just proposing a logical alternative. Here's another one for you. JUST DON'T ****! If you can't deal with what happens as a result, then don't do it. You charm the one-eyed snake, you get bitten.

 

I was exaggerating to prove a point. Both the egg and the fetus have the same capacity for thought and independent existence - none.

 

or instead of denying one of the basic human instincts because of outdated and foolish religious dogma perhaps people ought to practice safe sex, perhaps they ought to be TAUGHT about sex and it's dangers. the highs and lows that accompany it, and the pressures that people face as a result.

the most effective means of overturning the population overgrowth on our planet is genocide. what's your point?

well someone isn't bitter

no you were not, masturbation is not an alternative to sex. sex is between two people, it can be an expression of something.. sometimes love, sometimes lust. sometimes a mixture of both. it can be a wonderful and beautiful thing, it can be life changing and it can just be an enjoyable way to spend a saturday afternoon.

if masturbation is sex, then a tobacco cigaratte is a pure weed joint, they are similar in certain aspects but wholly disimilar in others.

or as I mentioned above, learn about the dangers. learn about the different contraceptives available. talk to your doctor, read about the different pills and different methods of birth control. Do not give in to the fear the religious want you to fear, sex is not evil and it is not a disease, but it is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly. Be sure you are ready for it, and do not let yourself be pressured into it, never be afraid to say no.

what *can* happen as a result.. pregnancy is NOT a definate result of a sexual encounter.

 

Yeah, but a chicken doesn't grow into a human being. You going to tell me that the life of a person only means as much as the life of a chicken? Oh no, all the farmers I know are mass-murderers! Whatever will I do? Well, since their lives mean about as much as the chickens I eat, I might as well kill and eat them, too. That'll show them who's boss! How's that for exaggerating?
And for Mordeth, I don't know about whereever you're from, but there ARE education programs here in Ontario. They don't to **** for the situation. People don't want to be educated. They want to get laid. They don't want to think about what happens afterwards, but they want to get off. You can educate people until the cows come home, but they'll still just be a bunch of horny little bastards.
And to your comments on religion saying sex is evil and all that, I want it on the record that I don't really give a rat's *** for what religion has to say. I speak from observations and my own morals, not from the Pope in his ivory tower in Rome. Besides, the views of various religious organizations from around the world may not coincide with yours, mine, or anyone's, but they are still the opinions of many worthy people, and you should grant them the same respect you would give anyone.

 

This brings me right back to my earlier point - if you're going to ban abortion based on what the fetus has the potential to become, then you should ban masturbation and contraception because of what the sperm could become. And you can't say that that doesn't count because the sperm needs an egg to survive, it can't survive independently - the fetus needs a womb to survive, it can't survive independently either.

 

worthy people?

worthy of what?

what if I don't consider these people worthy?

you say there is education.. what kind of education, is it a serious attempt at trying to educate young people on the risks involoved in becoming sexually active or is it just a passive attempt at keeping the goverment off the schools backs while everyone tries to tiptoe around the uncomfortable subject?


you seem to have an incredibly high opinion of your peers novus, perhaps you would be better served trying to find out why you are so bitter towards your more sexually active comrades instead of just blasting them and painting them as sex crazed fiends with nothing on their mind but "getting off".


(edit)

erm yes a sperm can survive indepentently.. for a short while, but it will not grow into anything. it will remain a sperm forever.. until it fades.
and it isn't that a sperm needs an egg to survive.. it's that it needs an egg to fertilize.. just fulfilling it's purpose and eventually growing into a foetus and being born, bleh bleh bleh.

saying that you shouldn't masturbate because it kills sperm is not at all like saying you shouldn't abort foetii(?) because of their potential to become human.

also..alot of you are talking of foetii (damn it, is that the correct word?) as being "potential humans".. so i take it you agree with me that they are not actually 100% 'human' and if not.. why should they deserve the rights and privilidges that we deem suitable for all humankind?

 

Dammit, it's just a loose comparison. You don't have to nitpick every little detail. I was just trying to show a basic flaw in the argument that you shouldn't abort a fetus because of its potential.

 

thanks for seeing the the tree from the forest. Dude, thanks for considering my whole standing and not quoting a single example that was off point just a tad. Wait, u didn't. All u did was consider one thing i said how bout this. I say a women can choose whether or not to have her fetus aborted. Its her decision whether this torn out of her or not. I mean, say she was drunk? or say she (in the spur of the moment) mad a bad decision. Should she have to raise this baby? Yes, perhaps. But that would result in a few bad things quite possibly. The mother could grow to resent this innocent child and feel that its the child's fault her life is in the shape it is. Its a way different thing to let the living, breathing mother take responsibility for her own decisions and raise the baby. But an option for her should be abortion. I mean otherwise its adoption? and what if the mother becomes attached to the child in those 9 months? still knowing that she cant take care of it the child could end up living a horrible life. Better to let the mother (AFTER A LOT OF CONSIDERATION) choose whether or not to abort her fetus...notice i always say fetus and not child. A child is a child, a fetus is not

 

define a horrible life?
who are you to decide the worth of another persons life?
no matter their upbringing, or the surroundings they are born into each person still has a chance to achieve happiness, and to live the life THEY want.
if a child is born into an abusive family, and is beaten every day until it is 5.. then it is taken away and put into an adoptive family, where it is given love, shelter, food, warmth, care.. and if this child were to grow up and meet a girl/boy and fall in love.. what then?

being born into poverty is not the worst thing in the world, being born into an abusive family is terrible but it is not the end. (not always anyway). every child has a chance , their life may not be perfect by your standards but that doesn't mean they can't be happy.

 

a case study eh?
http://kccesl.tripod.com/genie.html
locked in a room since infancy and not released til found at the age of 13. I also read of a young girl, at the age of three thrown out by her parents who were both drunks and didnt want her. Amazingly she was raised by her own. SINCE 3!!!!

and now, since we're spouting "WHAT IF"s ....
what if the child becomes depressed and one day commits suicide thinking it can never be too good?
what if they never meet someone because years of emotional abuse leave them with a shattered self image and a life of grueling pain
what if, what if, what ifs.....its all reletive. something used to make up something that may or may not exist to backup a side. Im sorry but i think its better to have the mother decide whether or not to abort the child than abortion being outlawed and the government telling people what to do.

 

well.. what if?

who are you to make the choice for the child? who is the mother?
if i see a child living on the streets of dublin, cold hungry and alone..with no shelter from the wind and rain.. should I throw her over the side of the bridge and let her drown? surely it would be easier not to let her suffer.

 

You can find stats for pretty much everything. They mean so little now, not to mention it's not as if they asked every person in existence. Relying on stats is more of a gamble than Vegas. Though if that's how you want to live your life, be my guest. Anyways... Underscore has a valid point. Why not just go and cut it off at where it starts; semen. Hell, let's ban masturbation and sex as a whole. And you have to go in and sign a form and get the approval of the state to get a kid. And it is then made by artificial insemination. Hell, while we're at it, let's blame Adam and Eve for screwing us over and leading to results such terrorists, genocide, so on and so forth. Like weeds, gotta get 'em at the root, baby!

Or we could just climb inside the mother and ask the baby itself what it thinks... or wait until it grows up old enough to make its own decision and ask if it wants to off itself then. There, now we're including the child's decision.

 

ah, but u see....thats how we get into a vice grip like hold. Yes, who am i to tell her she can abort her child. Who is she to kill a non-living organism. But then again, who are you to say that she cant! Seems quite the stalemate

 

HOLD IT.

We forget something. Let's take the famous anfibious metamorphosis for example. A toad becomes a frog. Also, caterpillars become butterflies.

But they are different stages on one VERY SAME organism.

The point in here, is that a fetus does not "become" a human. A fetus *IS* a human. Just in an early stage of development. A sperm has an X or Y chromosome... an egg has an X chromosome. Either one of those is not the DNA entity known as "human".

But a fertilized egg HAS the combination of both... it has the DNA information to be classified as human. As it divides, all its components (cells) keep that information, and their anatomy changes to the appropriate body part.

The DNA of the fetus is _NOT_ the mother, nor the father. It is a separate entity. Just because it's being nurtured by the mother's blood, doesn't make it *part* of the mother, as if it were an organ that can be dispensed off.

Regarding "becoming a person", we can argue that sooner or later we'll all become worm food. Does that gives us the right to kill anyone because he/she would "die anyway"? Of course not.

Again, what makes us human? What gives someone the right to live?

Regarding premarital sex & marriage:
Someone doesn't appreciate what he doesn't have. If people were rasied in the mockery of a family, with a father that doesn't care about the kids' education, a mother that would rather spend her time in her "fulfilling job" than educating her small children...

well if someone was raised in a "family" like that, OF COURSE he/she won't appreciate the value of marriage and family. But I wasn't raised in a pseudofamily like that. That's what makes me appreciate the value of marriage, moral education, and family.

Regarding "biological needs": Yeah well sex is a natural instinct. But media bombarding is not natural at all. Society and media today incite people to have sex. Remove that part of the equation, and what do you get?

Let's go inside the time machine... or well, just look at the Amish. Yeah I know, they're boring... but at least they don't go acting like rabbits, are they?

Anyway, I mention these points to make an inference:

media bombarding -> strong hormonal urges -> early sexual encounters -> pregnancy outside marriage

pregnancy outside marriage + family pressure/education/whims -> crisis -> abortion/adoption/whatever ?

I don't know about you guys, but for me it's quite logical. Remove the pressures from the family and perhaps the girl won't have a pregnancy crisis. Remove the media bombarding (or at least regulate it to some extent) and you won't get the extra-strong hormonal urges.

What do you think?

 

except you're making the choice that the child's life would be worthless and it would be better off not living..

i'm saying it would be better to let the child live and experience the pain and happiness in the world itself, and if it decides to end it. *shrug*

 

Ye gods, that's raising pomposity to an artform. My way is the right way. Other ways are just mockeries of the one true way. Great. That's some good tolerance of other people's methods ya got there.

OK, say we do all that, then a girl gets pregnant and wants an abortion. You can't honestly say that your amazing final solution would stop all unwanted pregnancies. What do you do then?

 

Well let me leave you people with this... even, say, abortions are abolished. Say they are marked illegal and all facilities are shut down... will that really stop women from getting abortions, if they feel they need to? Drugs have been banned, people still get ahold of them. There have been laws issued on every damn thing and every law has been broken. So how will this change anything? Personally, if you ask me, I think people are just trying too hard to obtain the unobtainable; Utopia.

 

ah tamato tama'to

but nonetheless it keeps getting into a giant run around...unstoppable