Debate Abortion

Awwww... ^_^ Yeah, I'd totally be the same way. I would never forgive myself if I did that. And that's why we say NO to premarital sex, kids!

But still, your friend who hates her parents... don't you think she's atleast happy that she is alive? Adopted or not?

 

I dunno, she's pretty dang suicidal. O_O she's odd, maybe using her as an example wasn't a good idea. (we're not even much of friends anymore)

But ya know, there's always the 'what if'. What if this happens, what if that happens. :dizzy2: Aieee...Yeah ya never know what'll happen but there's always what if there to make your life hell.



I also completly support going for abortion in the event of rape. At least with teen mothers they're usually having sex NOT against their will (except cases of peer presure ). Rape is done against a woman's will, and was of course not intended. Therefore abortion is completly needed in cases of rape, i believe. (never mind the fact that may be a bit tramatizing on a kid... *trying to think how she would feel if she found out she was a result of rape* *shudders*)

 

I think abortions are just wrong, no matter how you got knocked up. If you can't keep the baby, then put it in up for adoption. There area plenty of couples out there who can't have children. It is better than keeping a kid and then someday tell them they were a mistake .
Though , recently Bush signed a bill to ban a type of abortion. This abortion would deliver the baby half way and then stab the baby in the skull and SUCK its brain out. This same bill was given to Clinton at least 3 times, but he refused to sign it . He believed that women should have the right to kill their own child if they wanted to.
The thought of killing a child just because you are to lazy to take care of one is cold. Think about it , you could have been a mistake. If you're parents were able to have a abortion, do you think you would be alive right now?

 

What a wonderful opinion.

What if it isn't that simple? What if the mothers life is at risk?

And still ever so many orphans anyway.

Is it?

Yes. It's called a partial birth abortion.

It's a barbaric and unnecessary act because if there were gonna be medical problems the mom could have taken care of it way earlier, and at this point the baby is alive and has senses. However taking care of it early on (8-12 weeks) is a different story.

Way to oversimplify and vilify it. Sometimes there are valid medical reasons. Watch that you don't fall down your slippery slope fallacy.

Don't worry, I've already been told I have been.

Given that my parents were able to support my cost and I was not posing a grave risk to my mothers health, I'm pretty sure I'd still be here, and if I was aborted, I wouldn't exactly be able to care now, would I?

 

I think abortion is wrong. I have no sympathy for a woman who's had an abortion just because she didn't want a baby or she feels to young to be a mother. Any teenager or young woman who thinks she's old enough for sex should be old enough to give birth.

The only time I would agree abortion is the best choice is when the woman's life is in danger from complications with pregnancy.

 

Oh? An abortion is wrong if you're twelve years old and were coerced or forced into sex by someone, and are far too young to be a mother, or even bear the emotional and physical strain of being pregnat? An abortion is wrong if you're a little girl whose father abuses her, and eventually impregnates her? Or what about a woman who is raped, and had no choice in the matter of conception at all, no chance to ask for help? These things do happen. In such cases, it's in no way the woman's fault, and she should not be forced to carry to term a baby that she knows she doesn't want.

These situations pose a health risk to the woman, too. Many teenage mothers drop out of school, ruining whatever chance they had at a decent life - for them and for their child(ren). Some commit suicide. If you became pregnant through no choice or fault of your own, would you want to live for nine months with an unwanted child inside you, a constant reminder of whatever traumatizing event occurred that resulted in the pregnancy? I wouldn't.

"Laziness" isn't the only reason that women choose to have an abortion, and it's insensitive of you to imply that. This is a far deeper and more complex issue than I think you'd like it to be.

Abortions are performed for many reasons. Sometimes the woman isn't physically or mentally capable of caring for a child. (For example, there are cases where mental patients or mentally/physically disabled people are taken advantage of. These people are not always competent or able to raise children, or may not even be able to carry them to term anyway. The strain on their bodies and minds is lessened by an early abortion.) Sometimes the child is the result of violent sex crimes, or incest. These babies may be doomed from the start to horrible lives - would you want to be born into a family like that? What if the baby contracts an STD from a parent before birth? What if a violent home situation has resulted in the baby being injured while in the womb, causing lifelong, extremely severe disabilities? What if the mother is a druggy, who would probably ruin her child's life before it was born by shooting up while pregnant?

There are also many complications that can occur while a woman is pregnant. Sometimes, babies have or develop conditions that would make their lives outside of the womb brief and painful. Genetic conditions are incurable. Some are always fatal. Tay-Sachs (sp?), for example, causes loss of muscle control, spasms, etc. to the point that the baby wouldn't even be able to lift it's head after a while. It's inherited, incurable, and always fatal eventually. Why put the baby - and the parents - through that much suffering?

This isn't to say that I support killing "imperfect" babies - far from it. But there are many cases where the child won't have sufficient quality of life to justify the woman carrying it to term. Why make two people suffer? Three, if the father is involved.

Do you have any idea how many fetuses are spontaneously aborted without the mother ever knowing she was pregnant? A LOT of them. I don't know what the official statistic is offhand, but many MANY women are pregnant and lose the fetus so early on that they never even have a clue it was there.

Now... I don't in any way support the idea of abortions as "birth control." If a woman is so irresponsible that she can't take some steps to prevent getting pregnant in the first place, she ought not to be having sex. But on the other hand, why force a child to live with the consequences of his/her parents mistakes? If the woman is responsible enough and old enough that not only can she handle the pregnancy emotionally and physically with no significant risk, but that she'll take care of herself and give the baby a good start in life - great. She probably ought to put the baby up for adoption. But there are far too many possible situations where an abortion is, really, the best alternative for everyone. Not the "good" alternative, but the most appropriate.

A friend of mine knows someone who works at a clinic for pregnant teens. They had a case there of a girl, eleven years old, who was impregnated by her 29-year-old cousin. Do you honestly think this girl should be forced to have that baby? Do you honestly think that child, if s/he ever found out the circumstances, would be happy? Think about it.

And let's not forget that having an abortion takes an emotional toll on the woman as well, even if she really didn't want to have the child, for whatever reason. Women who get abortions are not necessarily doing it because they don't care. They're simply choosing the alternative that spares as many people as possible as much suffering as possible.

Besides - let's forget the right vs. wrong here for a minute, and think about just whether abortions should be LEGAL. If they weren't - abortions would still happen. But it would be in dark bedrooms with clotheshangers, or with dangerous drugs, or in Mexico, or with an unliscensed doctor in unsanitary conditions. Then, the law would likely be killing the mother, instead of letting her choose not to have a child.

 

Dilandau,

You make some good points. My heart goes out to women and girls who got pregnant as result of rape.

I really dont feel sorry for teenagers or young women who could have said no but chose to have sex anyways. If they think they are old enough for sex then they are old enough to accept the consequences. They should look into adoption, not abortion. It's not the baby's fault that the mother was so careless with her body.

 

People have the choice to abort a baby or not. No questions asked. Even though you are technically killing the baby imagine if they didnt abort he/she. Wouldnt they just treat them like crap....as if they didnt matter. Its like youre practically savin them ya know. It sounds cold hearted but its the truth. In my opinion...

 

I have to say that im against abortion personnally, if you do happen to get raped you should use the morning after pill, the only reason to use abortion is if there is a large risk to the mother/baby and people need to take responsibility for their actions, baby's should be adopted too, there is about a 3 year + waiting list for one, and it took 5 years to get my little sister.

 

I'd have to agree, overall. I don't have much sympathy for people who won't think before they act. If a young woman wishes to be sexually active, then she needs to take the responsibility to educate herself about her body, about STDs and pregnancy prevention methods.

Like I said, an abortion shouldn't be something you have because, oops, you got drunk at a party and didn't use a condom. That's stupid. Anyone in that situation needs to either take the morning-after pill and not wait until they've got a developing fetus in them for sure, or they need to decide what to do if they've gotten pregnant. Irresponsibility should have it's consequences.

On the other hand, though, punishing the mother by putting her through pregnancy, childbirth, and then the decision of whether or not to keep the baby isn't all that simple. Not only does it punish the mother for her irresponsible behavior, it also punishes the child by putting him or her into a family situation which probably isn't very strong or healthy - or into foster care. Not every adopted baby goes to a good home, though thankfully there are background checks. I still support a woman's right to choose abortion over adoption even if the pregnancy was preventable. However, it should be done as early as possible... and shame on the woman for being careless or ignorant.

Heh. They should look into education or sterilization, I think. e_e;

Of course, I think someone already said that it's the home environment of the woman that often creates these problems. That's quite true. Ignorance is the root of many problems. I think that better sexual education, and overall, better communication and family support would do wonders to stop teens from having sex before they're ready. Most do it because of peer pressure, or for attention. They feel that having sex with someone means you're in a devoted relationship... It's not always right to just assume that a girl who gets pregnant is stupid or irresponsible. It doesn't make them any better for getting themselves into situations where they may get pregnant - like parties with alcohol or drugs - but they shouldn't necessarily have all the blame put on their shoulders.

A lot of us make stupid choices... It's just very unfortunate when those choices can also ruin someone else's life.

 

Well have you heard of post-abortion syndrome~ 50% of women who get an abortion have trauma's afterward, alot of them end up commiting suicide, is this really right?

 

Well, naturally women are going to be traumatized by going through something like an abortion. I'm sure that many of them feel guilty for getting an abortion, even if it was really the healthier decision overall. Besides which, medical procedures can be scary.

There's also something called post-partem depression. Many mothers experience some emotional difficulty after giving birth, even if the child was wanted. Either way you go, it's a change in the woman's life, and it's natural that some people don't deal as well as others.

Also, hormone levels change with pregnancy. Hormones affect moods - I'm sure a sudden drop in pregnancy hormones would have an effect on a woman's mental state.

I don't know about the actual statistics of post-abortion depression/suicide, though. I wouldn't necessarily say that "a lot" of women commit suicide after having an abortion. I'd imagine that there are other factors playing into it for those that do, as well - the general quality of their lives, abortion or not, must be a big factor. Depression and other problems like unplanned pregnancies do tend to go hand in had with bad environments, violence, low self-esteem, etc. - all of which contribute to suicidal mentalities. So I really doubt that a high rate of post-abortion suicide would be entirely due to the woman having had an abortion.

 

Yeah but isn't there also a significant portion of mothers who actually have their kid and feel depressed afterwards? Just a year or two ago in Toronto some mom ended up killing herself and her child because of it...

 

*laughs* Watching all those random medical shows had to be good for something, I guess. XD But you're right - it's great that everyone seems so dedicated to having an intelligent discussion here, rather than attacking each other.

It's true. People like to make difficult issues into very black-and-white, oversimplified things so they can pick a side more easily. But it's not like that... Especially when the issue is something like abortion, where lives and quality of life are at stake. No one wants to be wrong about something like this, because being on the "wrong side" has so many implications.

Abortion is often condensed down to something like two issues; 1.) is it murder? and 2.) are women who get abortions being lazy/taking the easy way out? And it really just isn't that simple. It'd be a lot easier if it were.

Most people are basically raised with one view, and they get the arguments that support that view. But, regardless of what your stance is, it's important to try and see all the facets of an issue before you choose your stand on it. Both pro-lifers and pro-choicers exaggerate, to be honest. They both use scare tactics and guilt tactics to make their side look better, more moral. But it's better to have the option, for cases where it's needed. I guess that's why I side with choice... No one's going to force a woman to have an abortion, or they shouldn't (I could see some parents trying, actually). But the option should be there...

*is done rambling now*

 

All of you Pro Choice people look at this site and see what you're helping to support.

http://www.abortionno.org/

 

I was dissapointed to see that the site doesnt seem to give credence to women who need the abortion to live. Furthermore, the second it called abortion genocide, I just rolled my eyes and clicked it off. Abortion isn't necessarily because the baby is "unwanted". All that site is is propaganda, using fear and guilt as its primary weapons.

Their answer to raped women is simplistic and lacking - the fact remains that during normal intercourse, a woman has a choice on whether or not to use birth control. During rape, she does not, and she should have the choice on whether or not to stop the pregnancy. People say she should use the morning after pill, but a rape victim can hardly be counted on to be rational for a while.

Their comparisons often drew the worst case scenarios for aborted babies while drawing on the good points for babies left alive.

A fetus, like it or not, is a parasite, and if said parasite endangers the life of its host, why should we spare it?


Edit: The site is also extremely stupid in offering its FAQ only as a PDF instead of including it with a basic html version.

 

I took a look... and I see a lot of overdone "evidence" taken out of context. It's scare tactics. Both pro-lifers and pro-choicers use scare tactics - that's how bad this debate has gotten. Neither side really wants to be rational anymore, because opinions are at the far ends of the opposing spectrums.

I think I've already made most of my points about the cases in which abortion is appropriate, and I won't restate them and annoy everyone. But I want to bring in an example from one of the articles from that page:

"This relentless, hateful, propaganda assault against "unwanted" unborn children has now been merged with overt racism. On August 9th, 1999 the Associated Press reported a story headlined "Study suggests link between crime drop, legal abortions," with a sub-headline which said "Researchers conclude that unwanted children are the most likely to break the law."

The authors also conclude that unwanted children are most likely to commit crimes as adults and those most likely to give birth to unwanted children are teen-agers, minorities and the poor. Those are also the people most likely to choose abortion, the study found."

Now, let's think about this one. They're appealing to us to be anti-abortion because abortion is not only a hate crime, but racist? Does that really have any grounding in fact?

I say no. No one is forcing minority women to get abortions; it's their choice. In many areas certain minority groups are not well off - poverty breeds poor family situations, crime, and pregnancy at a young age, regardless of what ethnicity you are. People who don't have much in the world are more vulnerable to low self-esteem, depression, etc., and when they feel crappy about themselves or their lives, people all too often drink, do drugs, or get into relationships to feel needed. They also tend to be less educated about sexual health and pregnancy prevention. (Have you ever heard the rumor that douching with Coca-Cola after sex will prevent pregnancy? Some people actually believe that. There are also people who think you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex, or if you're on your period.) Thus - these people are putting themselves in situations that make them more likely to have unprotected sex.

So. Let's say that you're poor, and young, and some guy you slept with for a night knocks you up. You already have trouble supporting yourself - how can you take care of a child? You're not ready financially, let alone emotionally. So, maybe you want an abortion.

But maybe you don't get one. Maybe you have this child, that you weren't ready for and didn't really want. Children are a life commitment, and they change the whole way your life works. But... if you're dirt poor and probably suffering from emotional problems, addictions, illness or the like, you can't take care of a child very well, whether they were "wanted" or not, whether you love them or not.

So the child grows up. He or she is a strain on the mother and knows it, and feels guilty. S/he never has fashionable clothes, or good meals, or a house s/he feels proud to bring friends to. S/he feels unwanted and is angry at life in general. S/he turns to crime for money, sex to feel loved or seem more mature, drugs or alcohol to make it all go away for a while.

The cycle starts again.

So, yes, unwanted children probably ARE the most likely to break the law. This isn't pro-choice propaganda, this is logic. The worse you feel about your life, the more likely you are to make stupid decisions in the process of trying to escape the misery. (Trust me - I know what depression feels like, and you really do some stupid things just because you don't care, or it makes you feel better for a little while.)

I don't believe it says anywhere in that quote that minorities SHOULD have abortions, just that they do. I don't see how this is either racist, nor purely propaganda.

My point? Look at BOTH sides, not just one. Because both of them will distort the facts as much as they think they can to win you over. Be informed and make your own decision.

 

Good points have been made on this thread but Im against abortion.

Even if a pregnancy was a result of rape, it wasn't that child's fault. The woman and baby are both innocent victims of this crime. The only one who deserves to be punished is the rapist.

As for teenage pregnancy, just because a girl couldn't say no because she was afraid her boyfriend would leave her if she didn't have sex with him doesn't give her the right to kill her unborn child. I dont buy that "Im too young to have a baby" garbage.

Prevent abortion by making better choices about sex. Dont risk it for someone who will probably leave you anyways.

Adoption is a better option.

 

It's not that we're punishing the child, it's that we are extending the mothers choice of birth control since she clearly did not have a choice beforehand.

Even from 13 year olds?

You also did a handy little job of ignoring the people who need to abort to save their lives.