Debate Abortion

And think of it another way, That guy. America is already overcrowded - Can you imagine ANOTHER 35 million kids that the mothers didn't even want? That would be 35 million kids that are likely impoverished, on the streets, that need food and therefore are further dividing resources among the rest of us, etc.

However, you are right on your last point. Almost everyone's thoughts on abortion are so solidifed that NOTHING anyone says is going to change anyone's mind. I think the key is not to try and convince people otherwise but just respect other opinions (Which neither side does enough of, unfortunately).

 

The 35 million figure was worldwide.

 

Oh! My apologies. But I think my point still works.

 

Then again, I don't consider a foetus a life.... making the number of lives taken zero


And what about the lives taken that Christians admit God took?

Noah's Ark, for example....goodbye, the entire population of the world!

 

[My thoughts warning... ignore]
Why do people always bring religeon into these things... all it is is a laid out excuse.

When it all boils down to it, you are killing a child. may not look like one, may indeed look like a small red slimy peanut, but it is alive for the cells are busy multiplying & forming hence life. Oh no a woman got raped & is now pregnant... let the child pay by not being born. Oh no im pregnant & i dont want to adopt it because if i look into it's little eyes i may change my mind & keep it for myself... so kill it instead. Just let the nice doctors suck it out with a vacuum specially made for this task, or wait no let him shove in a little contraption that cups around the child & crushes it, better yet lets not go see a doctor & go for a good old backalley coathanger abortion.

Im neither for nor against the whole process or the choice. Just proves another condradiction in society, that doctors are sworn to help people live yet carry out abortions... tis no wonder i dont care about many things anymore. **** it all... let the killing commence.
[End of warning]

I knew there was a reason why i avoided debates... oh well

 

Technically youre not killing a child. The fetus only becomes a baby once its born. Its like taking an apple from a tree before its even ripe. Does it matter?? I doubt it...theres plenty of others.
See, people want abortion because they wont be able to support the upcoming baby...or maybe there not up to it.
Abortion is a choice and should be respected. They cant possible make it against the law. That would be heinous! Think of all the people that would become poor all because of the burden of a baby. Especially in other countries where the economy is not going very well. Id say its for the best.

 

First of all, I'd like to apologize to Neph for kind of letting out my anger earlier >__< Really a debate is not intended to be an all out battle of doom and destruction. It's meant to be a chance for us to come to know the other side, where we can strengthen our own views and maybe even change what we believe if the other side brings good enough points. Now to go on...


Here's a quote from a pro choice site:
"Half of all pregnancies in the U.S. each year are unintended, and about half of these are terminated by medically safe, legal abortions. In 2000, 1.31 million abortions took place, down from an estimated 1.61 million in 1990. From 1973 through 1997, more than 35 million legal abortions occurred (AGI, 2002; Henshaw, 1998)."

The stat was comparing how many deaths were occuring compared to a World War, the time line does not matter in my opinion. The point is that more children have died through abortion than people have died through wars(clearly and distinctly). No matter how you look at it, 35 million potential human lives were taken away. Maybe it's just my belief that a life should never be taken away from an individual under any circumstance ('tis what makes me pro-life)

I'd like to point out something that I find awkward with your
argument.. if we apply this logic to other cases it seems
that it is a bit strange.. In the past Canada was horrible to
immigrants and was totally racist, for many years we did not allow Chinese immigrants in our country, we sold off Japanese people's property and segregated them during World War 2. But does this mean that if we as Canadians try to defend a person who is being insulted because of their race that we are hypocrites? Japan was pretty bad during World War 2, the country wanted to take over the surrounding countries and bombed Pearl Harbour. Now if today, a country turned imperial and wanted to take over the world, Japan could not jump in to stop them because that would make them hypocrites? Now.. could you really claim that Christians who try to stop the unborn from being aborted are hypocrites because of what happened in Christian history and maybe even some in our own time?


I'd like to make another point(which I have a feeling people will look at and be like "how dare he say that" and ignore the rest of my argument above ^^;

People say that women have the choice to have an abortion, but for the longest time a doctor would only tell a woman that the child she would be aborting was only a blob! Now she couldn't really make a correct choice here because she wasn't provided the truth about what(or who) she was aborting! My own argument most likely can be used against this though because it was like this in the past and I hope that it isn't like this anymore...

 

You make some good points, That Guy. Although, truth be told, it's not a very good argument to begin with. Not many Christians are true fundamentalists who take every word of the Bible literally, and there's certainly nothing bad about admitting past wrongs in order to make things right. And who knows. Maybe God saw the light.

And That Guy, no one is criticizing you for your beliefs (At least I hope not). There's not one thing wrong in your belief that abortion is babies being killed, and I think you're pretty cool for taking all this time to defend your position, especially when there are a lot of others who disagree. The trouble is that these debates often get so personal. It's like I always tell my friends: Just because I SUPPORT abortion doesn't mean I LIKE it.

 

(Things in brackets are by Vicious... just to stop confusion)

(Technically youre not killing a child. The fetus only becomes a baby once its born. Its like taking an apple from a tree before its even ripe. Does it matter?? I doubt it...theres plenty of others)

Theres plenty of others... thats your excuse for denying a fetus existence outside the womb besides a medical bin?

(See, people want abortion because they wont be able to support the upcoming baby...or maybe there not up to it.
Abortion is a choice and should be respected)

Im not denying the fact that abortion is & should be a choice... but it should not be respected for in the end it is killing. & no support?... what exactly do you call family benifet?, & it's there own fault for dropping there knickers in the first place.

(They cant possible make it against the law. That would be heinous!)

& sucking the lil thing into a vacum with what resembles a food blender at the end isnt?

_______

Im not denying the choice of abortion for that would be futile, i just didnt want to see a nice little slide show of aborted babies shortly before lunch (Which was tomato soup btw) & all these facts, "Religeous morals" & laws wont cover or change the fact that it is just weak minded excuses to cause death rather than a small burden of life... pitifull.

 

Bah, I've had worse flames, don't worry about it. You should see some of the hate mail I got from a debate on evolution on another board! Oh boy, that was so much fun!

Ok, now I'm going to have to point out a flaw in your argument. You admit that you believe that a life should NEVER be taken away under any circumstance. Hence you should be including the total deathcount from those wars, not just the kids. The first world war had about 15.1 million deaths, and that was only 4 years long. The second world war was around 50 million. (Source: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)

Furthermore, by discounting timelines, well, by that logic you should be retiring soon because your dad is. Why? Because you didn't bother pointing out the timeline differences. Like it or not, ignoring the timeline is a fallacy. It's quite easy to make a statistic support you by ignoring a detail or two.

There's a difference between fighting people trying to kill you and killing someone just because they have a different religious belief. Furthermore, you misinterpreted my comment.

Actually, I was refuting your statement that morality came from religion. Morals can arise independantly of religion, and within religion corruption can easily occur. If you would like more modern day evidence, well, just look at a certain terrorist who declared Jihad. Or perhaps stroll over to www.godhatesfags.com to see the bigotry of a preacher. Heck, if you can't find religious hatred and evil in these times, it's only because you're shutting your eyes to it.

Do we even know the truth of what a human life is worth? For all we know, we're nothing important, and humanity doesn't even deserve a footnote in the history of the universe. We could be something great, but we could be something short-lived and irrelevent too.

However, I would like to ask something.

I've stated many times that I am essentially against abortion unless the pregnancy is frome rape or incest or the mothers life is at risk. How do you feel about that? Is that alright? I ask because I do not wish to make myself look like a hardcore "Kill em ALL!" type dude.

 

That's exactly the same way I feel. The only way that I feel abortion is right is when there is either another life at stake, or another's mental health. However, if the mother and father agree that it would be their best choice to do so, that is, in my opinion, their choice. Let it lie on their shoulders, not mine. I realize that I do not have data or information to back this up, but that's okay for me, because I don't care if you side with me. I prefer to not force my opinion into someone else.

And thus ends my short "rant".

 

I have one thing to say Greengo (don't take it the wrong way) but what if that baby dies once it's out fo the womb because the mother can't take care of it properly, or the father can't stand to have it around so he does something like drown it? If it's gonna die anyways, then spare it the pain.

 

Oh dont worry i wont take it the wrong way, but thanks for the warning (Also whilst were warning each other... i dont know how but sometimes i come off as a bit rude, no rudeness intended if it does seem so)... to answer your question it would require the ability of
prediction/foresight etc & to delve into a different matter of euthinasia (Mercy killing if ive spelt it wrong) & seeing as no-one within the whole baby life/death section has that ability i would not be able to answer that properly. But even if it did, i feel that the child should at least live a bit even if it's time is short & somewhat hard going... for as ive been trying to fit into one of these messages you should judge a life when it's living... not when it isnt even out to live/ give it a choice/chance (Oh hell im bad at phrasing myself & i usually avoid debates & expected this to be a quick in & out point) hopefully you can decifere my jibberish... im away to bed

 

I haven't made up my mind exactly on abortion, but I do strongly disagree with that. So you're not even going to give this kid a CHANCE? Who said it's life was gonna be full of pain and hate? Orphanages, family members, there are people out there. Doctors, politicians, NOBODY has the right to decide that that kid's life will be horrible. NOBODY has the right to take the chance of life away from that kid.

Have any of you ever been to an orphanage? I have, I actually helped out a about 8 different ones for community service. It's not what you think it is. It isn't a bunch of depressed kids locked in cages. They go to public school, get on the net, read books, everything. They're just like normal kids. Honestly, they're ALOT happier than people who have a single parent, in most cases. Speaking of children being drowned, you remember that lady who drowned all of her kids just a year or so ago? It wasn't because she didn't want them- she was crazy. If someone dosen't want a kid, it's still their flesh and bone- the parents, or someone they know, will have enough sense to give it some kind of home and chance at life. Parents randomley drowing they're children because they don't want them is way overexagerrated.

Think about it.

 

Even though a fetus isn't a a life it doesn't mean it is okay to destroy them.

I think that for the most part everyone can agree that killing adults is wrong. But think about what makes killing them wrong. Some things that come to mind are that it goes against most peoples desires. Another is that it puts an end to someones activities, experiences, and enjoyments. Killing someone also denies them any future enjoyments, activities or experiences.

Losing one's future, is one reason why the terminally ill people believe that dying is a very bad thing. By dying prematurely they are deprived of future enjoyments. It is also why killing a person without desire to live is wrong, they may have experiences that make them want to live in the future. I think this shows that depriving someone of their future is prety bad.


By aborting a fetus we are depriving it of a valuable future. Which is why I think abortion is wrong. I used to be a defender of abortion. I thought because fetuses weren't people it was okay to kill them and anyone should be able to abort. But this argument made me think that abortions were wrong even if a fetus isn't a person.

In some cases abortion is justifiable, like when the mother's health is at risk. I'm undecided about whether rape or failed contraception can justify abortion. But I tend to lean towards yes for both.

 

I was just using drowning as an example. -_-;

And I'm not saying orphanages are a bad place either. I ahve a friend who's a adopted and she hates it with a passion. She hates her adopted parents. And then I think, what if I had a child, what would happen when they find out they're adopted? Will they resent me for letting them go for adoption? (like my friend seems to be about her real parents) I'm trying to think here if *I* were the parent. I don't think i EVER be able to forgive msyefl for letting anything happen, abortion, adoption, even MISCARRIGES. I'd be probably be pretty depressed knowing me. What would depress me more is not knowing how the child is now, not knowing if the child ahtes me or not.

Try thinking about it if you were the mother like I have been thinking. Abortion or let the baby go for adoption? Think of the cons and pros. Think about it hard. What would you choose?

I hope I never end up in that situation because I would dpress myself.

 

By that logic, condom producers are the largest mass murderers in the world. I don't cry for every blade of grass cut, or every flower picked. I don't consider that taking a life.

What about the opportunies you deny every fifteen year old girl who gets pregnant, can't have an abortion, drops out of school, ends up working in McDonalds, lives in poverty? How does the priorities of an organism with no thoughts or feelings come before that of the mothers?

 

First flowers, and blades of grass don't have the kind of valuable future that a fetus has. To the best of my knowledge, plants will never experience pleasure or emotions. Plants will never be able to have relationships.

As for condom producers. It could be argued that sperm could become a human and therefore has a valuable future. And that killing sperm surely isn't wrong so how can killing fetuses be wrong. But the significant difference is that out of millions of sperm maybe one can grow into a fetus. The average sperm will swim around for three days or so and die, not exactly a valuable future. But almost all fetuses have valuable futures. Also I don't consider fetuses to be lives, I just say that it is wrong to kill a fetus because it has a future like ours.

As for the case of the young mother, she could put the baby up for adoption, its unfortuante that her life would be disrupted for a while but her opportunities are still there.

 

So? It can be argued that pleasure is merely neural stimulation whilst emotion is simply the interaction of chemicals in the mind. Furthermore, a plant WILL have relationships, simply not in the traditional sense (rather it will be a relationship with lifeforms in general either via gas exchange or food).

Furthermore, one could also easily argue that a plant will never intentionally harm (save for cases like a Venus Fly Trap in which case it's only doing what it needs to live) another being, nor will they experience hatred, spite, wrath and obsession. Additionally they will never be in an abusive relationship.

A typical pro-life argument is never to judge the potential of a fetus. That argument should go both ways.

What if the mother is too afraid of the baby hating her for giving it up? I know (or rather knew, I have not heard from her in many months) a girl who got knocked up and refused to give up the baby for fear it would hate her.