Debate How do you feel about the U.S government

Maybe OFFICIALLY, yes. But what about racial profiles in Florida? People in minorities (black people, latin people) being told to pull over for no apparent reason?

How about the majority of people sentenced to death being minorities?

Equally, huh?

Oh, and let's not forget about teenagers sentenced to death (sure, the govt waits for them to grow in jail before they can apply such sentence).

As I said before, it's VERY EASY to claim the US is a wonderful utopia... when you're NOT a minority race.

Reminds me of the greek democracy... people could choose their rulers - but that was for citizens... slaves were still slaves.

 

It's not easy to be a minority ANYWHERE in the world.

- Ark

 

We saw the evidence of WMD everyday after the first gulf war. What evidence? Well the pictures and video tapes of the dead bodies of the Kurds and Muslam groups who were starting rebellions against Hussain. No evidence for nuclear weapons have been found, but WMD also include chemical and biological weapons. These latter two are often called "A poor man's nuke" since they can have an effect equal to or worst than a nuclear bomb (sure, they cannot destroy cities, but they can wipe out the living things within a city), but they are also easyer and cheaper to create and deploy; hence their unofficial name.

 

What do you mean by "racial profiles"
Just because there is a few cops out there that think they are bad a$$. Doesnt mean that their isn't any descent cops out there. First of all there is probally some report out there that says black, latin, or men are bad drivers or more then likely to carry illegal substance. Are you a cop? Did you know that there are statistics out there that cops go by? do you even know about the cops that killed by pulling the SO CALLED WRONG ppl over? cops usually have a reason to pull you over no matter how small the reason is. DRUGS are illegal for a reason. If you didn't do anything wrong why the h3ll should it matter the cop giving you a warning or telling you that your tail light is out. I got pulled over one time because my left blinker didn't work and I was from the wrong neighborhood. I didn't say the cop was racest now did I. OMG he pulled over someone who LOOKS indain. I told him thanks considering my exs blinker doesn't work. And BTW if it was an illegal pull over the person can get out of it.

IF YOU DO THE CRIME YOU PAY THE TIME. Remember that? Way over half the time the person who kills someone are the ppl who get the death sentence. Not that man who messed with the mail. If you are at the age were you dont know right from wrong then you deserve to die. Most ppl dont want to believe that a kid could do that. Its the parents fault or the tv. So they have to wait and think about what they did. They still die in the end.
What about the three year old (whos mother left alone) that was killed in cali? Is it not right to make the mom pay the time for what she did?
Or the cigs that kill ppl? shouldnt the cig companies pay for their deaths? or is the warning not clear enough for you? second hand smoke is a differnt issue. you can move away or make the place smoke free.

The US laws are made for the majorty then the laws go to the LITTLE PPL. I never said I thought the US was utopia. I said I liked the way the laws were set up. AND yes there is prejudice still left but it has become less. I dare you to name a coutry that doesn't have prejudic. GUESS what there isn't any. If you do act on your prejudice then guess what you get introuble for it. YOU can not make ppl think the way you want them too.

The government is made "for the ppl and by the ppl". It is not better than having ONE person rule over you and tell you what to do and how to do it.

IF ppl are dumb enough to get into trouble then you can go to jail for it. The laws are set up for certain ways. Trail and error.

I hate when ppl try and slander my coutry.

Yes the US isn't perfect but like I said if you live there and learn from the US. Most of the citzens from the US think everyone is equal. And the US will always help out the countries that are in need. Blah blah didn't want it. THEN why are ppl from that country starving?

The US has set up welfare, soup kitchens, and food stamps within the US to deal with its own ppl staeving. If you have to much pride to use it then you deserve to starve.

A rich man may never smile a day in his life but the poorest will have many days to smile. think about it

 

Excellent post, Basher19. My mom got a full scholarship to come here from Turkish Cyprus, which isn't even a true country in the eyes of the US. Needless to say, she's experienced her share of unfairness at the hands of the government. Does it annoy her? Of course. Does she still love America? Of course.

And luvweaver, if you honestly believe that minorities in the US are no better off than Greek slaves, then there's no point in debating further because you're so far gone you'll never believe anything good about the country.

 

Basher
You know what, if that's your approach... Forget it, there is no point debating you... If you're someone with pre-set arguments that can never be changed... This thread is absolutely useless.

IF the US was out to help all the countries, please tell me why it is not helping Liberia right now? Somalia? The starving North Korean people? Yemen? Palestine?

The US helps the countries it wants to help.

And when people STARVE, they ASK for help, like the Lberians are doing now.

But unfortunately, your great government handpicks the countries it helps, not on the basis of the suffering they experiences, but on the basis of the strategic and political benefits it will gain.

And when it's not asked, it interferes and stays there for a while, like Iraq. Today 3 soldiers killed, yesterday 2... The people obviously don't want the US there... But no.... We have to be there... WE HAVE MADE THE SITUATION WORSE FOR IRAQIS!!! More people are without electricity, without food, without water.

But as I said... I don't think there's any point debating you. You're clearly one of those with pre-set arguments that can't be changed.

We write a hundred posts, giving examples and such, and you come and say "And the US will always help out the countries that are in need. Blah blah didn't want it. THEN why are ppl from that country starving?" Did you even READ our posts?

 

The identity of the person was leaked out to US radio media. Don't you think it was strange that at 3 in the morning Saddam's cousin makes his wife and daughter leave their home very quietly, then hours later, the army is at the front door and they take the owner of the house with HIS younger son to a safe location before turning that residents into swiss cheese. Identity not being revealed---more like location not being revealed because now this man has made himself marked man. There is no way he can stay in his country and think he will survive now. 30 million dollars and he most likely will be off to that really bad country you are calling "AMERICA". How ironic, don't you think??

And Sasuke, your last statement hasn't insulted me in the least. Mainly because my statements are just my own opinions concerning the Iraqi people. I am a soldier in the US Army. The last thing I want is for our president to be sending us all over the world as the World Police. But when you look at the situation that was going on there--How can you not say they won't be better off without Saddam in power? I'm sure you must have had hundreds of talks with them and you lived among them, so you can be their spokesperson here. I, on the other hand, have the fortune to live in the USA where I can pick my own religion, pick my education, my work, and even on some occassions --bad mouth my government without the fear of being publicly killed to prove my power. Have you seen the news lately--they showed fathers and sons playing soccer in a stadium that used to be used for public executions. Slowly, the people are changing for the better. And tell me this--If the Iraqi people didn't want what we offered them, why didn't they also attempt to stop our ground troops instead of actually aiding them as was shown on Network news around the world. And--do you really think they would have destroyed all Saddams statues if they wanted him back in power after the US leave. Think about this for a minute before to attack me again---does any people deserve the life that Saddam has to offer??

You see, the good thing about MY country is that I can say all that I just said and the only thing I have to worry about is a few Forum members not agreeing with me. I think I will take my chances with that over life in Iraq under Saddam.

Vic

 

As far as I know, the peson who gave the location of Uday and Qusay was a Shiite sheickh, according to news agencies...

Whatever. I did not say their situation was worse now, but neither did I say their situation is better.

Iraqis did help te Amerian trops, because they thought the American troops were going to liberate them. They did topple Saddam's statue, because yet again, they thought the American troops were going to liberate them. In addition, the number of people who toppled Saddam's statue was not substantial.

Two weeks later, 300,000 Iraqis protested against the US army presence in Iraq.

But now, months after the fighting is over, the Iraqi people, and the Arab world in general, is viewing George Bush as yet another Saddam Hussein. First of all, there is the consistent fear of losing their lives, since security is quasi nonexistant in Iraq. Under Saddam's rule, people were not totally free, but at least they could walk in the streets without fearing that they'll be shot to death. Even though I'd pick freedom over life any day (and probably so would you), the majority is not like that. They'd rather live under a dictator safely, then in a very unsafe city freely.

Second, the infra-structure of Iraq is damaged so substantially because of the war, that the US has not been able to restore electiricity, water, and food for some parts of the country. It is deplorable. Again, some people would have preferred living under Saddam Hussein than in these condtitions.

Third, the Iraqi people don't view the American Army as a liberting army because of what happenned in the past. A mother can't forget her newborn child's death so easily. There is always revenge stuck in their minds, and it's justified.

Fourth, the economy was much better under Saddam Hussein. Right now there are no jobs. 48% unemployment. In the US, unemployment is 6% and everyone complains. That gives you an idea.

Those are the reasons why Iraqis don't welcome Americans, or welcomed in the beginning, denounced at the end.

 

sasuke there is a debate about the us going to Iraq go there and spew all you want. Of course you can not debate me because i am right. As far as you trying to make a point were are you from? My point exactily. While you sit on your couch ppl like VMC go and defend their country and actually see what is going on in Iraq for example.
Its pointless to slander a coutry. the ppl are the ones who do things wrong. It is about how you feel about the government. not the ppl. So that ends all the debates on the US not being fair towards everyone. It has been written and is written the laws are. The ppl do the action not the government. The government just goes by the law.

<Ok, this makes little to no sense, Basher. I know you are capable of expressing yourself intelligibly, so please do so. - Ark>

Read the eariler post Ark then u will get it

 

But all of this is understandable, especially when you consider that divisions that are in occupation of Iraq (Bagdad in particular). The Army divisions that occupy the central cities (or hotspots) do not know how to operate as an urban peacekeeping force. Luckly the secretary of defense came to his senses (a little late) and are going to be sending the right guys for the job. Keep in mind, the troops who are over there now were trained to fight large land battles. They are also ordered to bust into suspected homes and search the place, with dogs, for weapons, important people and whatnot. The troops hate doing it, the Iraqies hate the troops for doing it and the commanders are wondering why people are protesting against us.

The security situation for the average Iraqi is worse now than it was when Saddam was in power; but heck, the majority (if not almost all) of the troops cannot speak arabic and they are already getting a lot of heat from the Arab news stations for the arrests they are doing. The police academy is in the process of training new recruits, but these things take time. Here in Los Angeles, it takes nine months to train a fresh batch of recruits. I'm sure they are speeding things up as quickly as possible, but an effective police force takes time and cannot be rushed along no matter who demands it. I can't say for certain what is keeping the power, water and phone lines down, but I remember hearing the news talk a little bit about sabotage. I would make sense since keeping those three things out of commision would help stir up anti-american support.

I guess you know what the Iraqies want eh? Many of your points sound like they are the truth. Heck, much of the information spread around comes from different medias. But how do we know how things really are in there? I'm not there, I don't think anyone here knows what it's like, so this is all emotion based on what we hear/see. I find it hard to believe that everyone there would view things in the way you seem to put it. I have no clue were the percentages so far as support for Saddam or support for the US belongs, but this whole situation in Iraq is a big game of weighing your chances. You are dammned if you do and dammed it you don't, the question is, which way leads to less damnation? You can't please everyone, people wanted the bodies of Saddams son's so they can deal with them on their own and know for certain that they are who we say they are, yet others in the Arab world were protesting that the bodies should have been shrouded and buried right away. There's just no way of pleasing everyone.

 

Just a few words about the hypocrisy of the American government sometimes. Here are the last few lines of an editorial from the New York Post, an extremely conservative - and extremely looked down on - newspaper:

"The fact is, again, that America intervenes where America's vital interests demand intervention. Time will tell if Liberia rises to that standard."

This from the paper that screamed bloody murder about Democrats refusing to go to war with Iraq, saying that they were heartless and gutless for not wanting to help out the Iraqi people. This time the Liberians WANT our help (At least superficially), and the Post admits that since it's not necessarily in America's interest, it's perfectly okay to ignore their suffering. Like I said, no one really takes the New York Post seriously, but those two sentences speak volumes about America's dealings overseas in terms of the military.

(For the record, I'm against sending troops into Liberia for the exact same reason I was against sending troops into Iraq - I'm almost 100 pecent an isolationist).

 

Anyone who says this clearly needs to learn the meaning of nationalism. I am opposed to all US policies that have bene implemented in the last 30 years, but I still wouldn't say this.

If I were an American, I'd work hard to change everything. I'd be angry, upset, and rebellious.

But Ashamed... I don't respect someone who is ashamed of their own nation. Those people just don't have the basics of being a good human being. Someone ashamed of their nation is just not a respectable person...

Offense intended.

 

So a child who murders 30 men is fundamentally different from an adult who does the same act, how?

ALL US policies? What about the beneficial ones, like sending, oh, $5 BILLION to africa to help fight AIDS? Not every policy the US has enacted in the past 30 years has been bad. Just a lot of them, sadly.

Well spoken, and I completely agree.

- Ark

 

hm, i think this kinda went OT a long time ago.
Well, ill add one little thing to this debate-

Has anyone here read "Stupid White Men" by Micheal Moore?

<This isn't the Books forum But since I suspect the book you're mentioning is about the topic, I'll let it stay here.- Ark>

 

I see a lot of people debating here about US polices. Where are they? I want to see the proof of them.

I live in the US and I never heard of African Americans not being allowed to vote in Florida because of having a birth date with a criminal (that is just stupid). But if it was true then why wasn’t there lawsuits all over the news? Only thing that could come close to this was allowing criminals to vote (not sure if there was a policy on allowing criminals to vote but I know that there was a movement for it).

Ppl (Ppl looks funny when it starts with a cap) have been saying that the government has gone to Iraq but the government can not unless a declaration was declared by Congress. (Which I have not seen) The ppl of the United States wanted action after what happened on September 11. The president and his advisors knew this so they had to do something. But congress would not go to war because Iraq wasn’t the one who did September 11. Some of their ppl did.

As far as saying that the government isn’t fair to people this isn’t justified considering all the amendments for the people. Everyone is fair. The people in the US are the ones who are not fair. I will give you an example: employer hires a man but the women is better for the job. How did the government have an effect in that? (It didn’t considering it wasn’t the government hiring but that’s beside the point. the government never hires. The people do appoint other people exp. President.) But the government will have a say if the employer was sued for sexist.

The government has no sex and treats everyone equal as far as rights go. The people of the US are the ones that do the corruptions. If anyone in the government was corrupt and found out then they would get impeached. I dare you to tell me the sex of the US government. It’s not a guy because it sucks at find locations and it’s not a girl because it does declare war.

Yes there are people inside the government. But the government then would change a lot and have new laws. Different presidents and all. The laws are set to have everyone be equal but the ppl are the ones who don’t make each other equal.

As far as suing goes yes people in the US do sue for stupid reasons. Has anyone watched any of those judges’ shows? There’s a bunch of stupid reasons to sue on them. I will give you an example of a stupid reason: a stranger goes into a house by the skylight and falls. The owners get sued because the man or woman was trying to rob their home but was hurt (off of lair lair).

As far as changing laws go or an amendment there was the prohibition amendment. So yes it can be done.

Unlike Kings or tyrants laws can change for the good of the people.

That’s why I like the US government. The government protects the people. It takes CONGRESS to declare war not the president but the president can send troops to other countries without war being declared

<Basher, PLEASE learn to spell, and to otherwise use English properly. At least in Debates.- Ark>

Happy?

 

Mr. Pig is right, this topic has gone in all directions and involved all sorts of arguments. Basher19 put up some good points as well, and I agree that the government should certainly encourage equality and all that jazz, and FORCE it when people's livelihoods are being impeded upon egrigiously (Now there's a "duh" statement.)

I think that it's probably pointless to continue this debate. We can sit here and debate certain aspects of the U.S. government and its policies, but the topic is so broad and so impactful on everyone in the world that I doubt anyone's mind will be changed or their views will be altered. America haters will always trash it, America lovers will always defend it, and the ever-elusive middle will see who put up a better argument.

That said, I said in the second post to this topic that there are a great many policies of the Bush Administration that I hate. I was ashamed that he was my president when he invaded Iraq. I hate it every time Rumsfeld opens his filthy mouth and offends our allies (Since March, he's offended England, France, Germany, Turkey, Mexico, Canada and all of NATO - Now there's a diplomat for you), and I hate it every time a bill allowing drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge is introduced.

But even with all that, it doesn't mean that I hate America. Most non-Americans seem to think that Americans either love Bush's policies or they hate the country altogether, and that's simply not true. I hate Bush's policies, certainly, but it's foolish and frankly stupid to discount all the wonderful things America has done for the world. America saved Europe from a certain mustached dictator, brought stability to the world after that war, and has given billions upon billions in aid (Though, sasuke_Aoshi, we've established that the aid might have less than honorable intentions, right?). Americans have created countless medical breakthroughs, technological achievements and is slowly (Very slowly) making progress on gay rights and reducing pollution.

The author James Baldwin once said, "I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." My sense of patriotism can be defined by that quote. I hate Bush, I hate Cheney, I hate Rumsfeld and I hate Ashcroft, but I still love America.

 

I think thats the funniest and by-god truest post ive ever read.

*offers mild applause*