Debate rights or education...I Wonder

is it right for schools to asign dress code even if you have a different religion? and what happened to freedom of speech? don't you think that right is also taken from us at school? my history teacher said where your rights end, my rights begin...well you really can't end or begin if you don't have any to start with.

I will let you decide :anger2:

 

If you don't like having a dresscode, go to another school.

Failing that, keep your trap shut. You can have your opinioins and such, but for many of them, school is simply not the place to voice them.

 

You go to school to learn and become more proficient at whatever you decide upon; It is their school, their time, and therefore their rules.

 

"If you don't like having a dresscode, go to another school."

Many parents don't have that option, Nephilim. My high school was the only one in a 20 mile radius, so it would have made absolutely no sense to do so. Plus, if it's a public school, many times students are assigned what school to go to by the county so they don't even have that choice.

"Failing that, keep your trap shut. You can have your opinioins and such, but for many of them, school is simply not the place to voice them."

Just because one is under the age of 18 doesn't mean that s/he's supposed to be seen and not heard. I certainly agree with you that if the offending person is actively disrupting the learning process (Swearing, wearing clothes that show genitalia, hate speech), they should get punished. But if you're trying to voice your opinion in a constructive way it shouldn't be stifled at all. Should anti-gay Southern states be allowed to ban students from making a gay/straight rights club? The most famous case was over 30 years ago, when five high school students were suspended for refusing to take off their black armbands. Why? Because the armbands were meant to protest the Vietnam War. They weren't hurting or offending anyone, yet they were still very harshly punished. The Supreme Court eventually sided with the students. A much more in-depth analysis can be found at http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_schugurensky/assignment1/1965tinker.html Would you have supported their suspention, Nephilim?

"You go to school to learn and become more proficient at whatever you decide upon; It is their school, their time, and therefore their rules."

Wrong, at least if it's a public school. You are being FORCED to go to school until you're 16 (At least in most states). If the government is going to force you to do anything, they are obligated to keep your rights intact, at least to a certain degree. By your logic, teachers and principals would be allowed to physically abuse students and let bias influence grades all because it's "their rules." Now a PRIVATE school is indeed allowed to do so because they're not funded by the government; any student going there has made a conscientious decision to not attend public school.

 

Well then boo-frickidy-hoo. Students are there to learn, not to strut down the runway.

And, do tell, how is constructive opinion-giving hampered by a dress-code?

The thread poster is talking about uniforms. Not gay clubs.

Can you bring up a public school that demands uniforms?

Well clearly as the thread starter brought up not only uniforms but differing religions, it's a private school.

 

"Well then boo-frickidy-hoo. Students are there to learn, not to strut down the runway."

You can be as sarcastic as you want. If only makes you look foolish. But in regards to the second part, just because students are there principally for education doesn't mean they have to forfeit the right to wear what they want (Within reason, of course).

"And, do tell, how is constructive opinion-giving hampered by a dress-code?"

Did you not check out the link I attached? There was a very clear and very famous example of attire being banned with the specific intent to limit speech. And I can give you another example of something just this year: A student here was suspended earlier this year for refusing to take off or turn inside out a T-shirt that said "Bush: International Terrorist." A judge later said, not surpsiringly, that he can wear the shirt. THAT link can be found at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/01/national2130EDT0841.DTL That's two examples now.

"Can you bring up a public school that demands uniforms?"

None, and for good reason. If a school tried to implement them, it would be challenged and likely be forbidden in court.

"Well clearly as the thread starter brought up not only uniforms but differing religions, it's a private school."

Like I said before, I don't care what private schools do. Students (Or their parents) have made a conscious decision to attend that school, so they must obey the rules set forth by the school. It's public schools I'm concerned with.

 

Well then, as the author is referring to a private school, most of the debate is moot.

Furthermore, I highly doubt those dress codes in question forbid political commentary. While naturally they shouldnt, when I hear dress code I think "skirt no higher than 5 inches above the knee", etc.

 

"Furthermore, I highly doubt those dress codes in question forbid political commentary. While naturally they shouldnt, when I hear dress code I think "skirt no higher than 5 inches above the knee", etc."

Fair enough. Yeah, I agree (Or at least won't fight against) most dress codes that are just trying to cover up some skin. It's when schools try to ban speech or choice or whatever that makes me disagree.

Well, I'm glad our little debate there ended peacefully, Nep . Just in time, too. I've gotta take off for a nice 12-hour stint at school - Hopefully there'll be more opinions on this when I get back.

 

Quite. Most debates do, except when the person believes I'm targeting them out of malice.

Have fun.

 

Yeah but are dress code is shirts with no logo,belts, NO shorts

 

...So? Heaven forbid you look dignified. Anyway, moving along, the big argument against uniforms is self expression. However, how is slapping a logo on yourself expression? Indeed, it's just corporate branding.

 

:dizzy2: Whoa! Easy killah! :sweat2: I dunno how you ignored the first question and got away with such harsh language. If someone's religion meant something to them, of course they'd have to say SOMETHING if a school's rules were gonna conflict. And just cuz you have a different religion, doesn't mean the person wouldn't "like having a dresscode." Billy is right you know--not everyone has the convenience of picking the school they wanna go to. (Why be so rude?)

And the way I've experienced it, school is an okay place to voice opinions. You can tell your peers as well as teachers about how you feel about almost anything. Maybe a few people there will disagree, but as long as you're not harassing anyone or going against school policy, you can voice whatever.

In answering the topic, I think the nation's laws (freedom of religion here) should be respected in a school. So if your school says all girls should wear clothes a certain way, but your religion says you must strictly wear clothes a different way, you should have the right to have that exception from the school's rules. Seems like, from the previous posts, that when taken to court, the students win anyway. I guess, "might makes right"?

 

What can I say, I got sick of hearing people whine about uniforms. Let's face it, anyone who can only express themselves through clothing probably isn't worth the time to begin with.

So, if a Muslim went to a Catholic Church, and demanded that they all pray facing Mecca... you think they should? Any school with an official religion is a private school, and, well, thats too bad for anyone who demands some equal rights. And even if it's the ONLY school available, I personally feel people should just stop whining and go along with it.

If someone comes to my BBQ because it's the only one they can go to, and moan and complain about the toga theme, well, that's just too bad. It's a private affair, not public.

Wait. Hold on. "as long as you're not... going against school policy" is what you believe in. Uniforms are a school policy. Concession Accepted.

There's a difference between wearing a uniform and having a religion forced on you.

If it's a valid religious thing, like a turban, sure, an exception could be made for that student alone provided he is actually a part of that religion and his religion does demand certain clothing be worn. But you had better durn well be wearing YOUR religious uniform from that point onwards. Failure to do so, I feel, should result in immeadiate termination of your privilege.

Furthermore, to be totally blunt, that should only apply if your religion says "you MUST wear this" or "you MUST not wear this". However, if it has nothing to say on that particular portion of clothing, then you're stuck with the uniform.

EDIT: The point I am ultimately trying to make is that people are trying to use the "respect my religion" argument. Thing is, that's a two way street. Why can't you respect their religion? I would never have the sheer audacity to go into a church and start making demands because I happen to feel a certain way religiously. Furthermore, if I -had- to, for whatever reason, go to this church (lets just for example say its Christmas mass and my hypothetical wife is strongly catholic, and all she asks of me is to go to Christmas Eve mass with her), instead of trying to debate the priest, I'd just be quiet, let everyone else have their fun, and not raise a ruckus. Internally I might not be agreeing, but that does not give me the right to disrupt how the mass would operate.

 

I know this debate is primarily about private schools and not public schools (Hence why I'm not jumping in the debate again), but there's an issue almost identical to the one you guys are talking about in France.

You've probably all heard about the case. A Muslim girl in France was told at her public school that she could no longer wear her headscarf, as it violated the recently-imposed ban on all religious attire from public schools. There was a court case, and not only did she lose, but Chirac himself jumped in, agreeing with the court that no matter how vital the clothes are to one's religion, the ban must be fair and equal across all religions.

Muslims across the world are obviously furious at the ruling and are staging everything from protests to boycotts (As if the French weren't being boycotted enough already.) What do you guys think of the ruling?

 

No one said anything about being expressed ONLY through clothes (in fact, there's probably no such thing). And that's not what the argument is about.

You missed my point, so that's an irrelevant question.

Bad analogy you're trying to make... Kids with only one school to choose from HAVE to go there. If there's only one BBQ to choose from, no one has to go! BBQ's are entirely optionly. But school is mandatory in most places in the USA.

You missed my point again! I was talking about voicing opinions (speaking, talking), not actively going against something (uniforms). Sure it's fine to go around school saying "I hate uniforms," cuz voicing your opinion is okay. It's only when you do something about it that the fighting breaks out.

And it seems like it was implied that we're talking about private schools. The first few posts didn't mention private schools, so I was referring to public schools.

 

Y'know, I would like to ask something... can anybody find me a concrete example of a North American public school dress code that specifically rules out religious clothing?

I may as well note here that I'm against what France did in banning ALL religious items from the public schools.

However, there's a big difference between wearing a turban and wearing a t-shirt that says "**** YOU BUSH" with pants that show off half your *** in school.

 

Neph...I can give you a firsthand experience...
My friend (let's call her Gaffs, short for her last name...) was hardcore Muslim back in the day, when she went through the rituals and the Arabic schooling. One day, the Principal (Mr. Rizzo, a tweaked out Nam vet missing half his digestive tract) saw her in her religious shawl (I dont know what those are called, sorry if I offend.) and said in a large voice "HEADWARE IS NOT ALLOWED IN THE SHCOOLBUILDING." Let's just say suits were filed, settlements were settled, and reviews were begun. Our dresscode ruled out all forms of headgear, religious or otherwise, and has since been repealed. Thank'ya.

France should rule out all religious material, since it already ruled out swasticas/Nazi apparel, and while im not endorsing Nazi or whatever it technically IS a belief and yeah. Its good that they were thorough.

Also, there is a def diff between religious, political, and fashion statements. Religious should definitely be allowed, Political so long as its done tastefully, and fashion? Screw fashion, its distracting and unnecessary.

 

Yes, but that wasn't specifically targeting religious apparel.

 

ivote no

I vote no because we have our rights every were else but school.