Debate What do you think happens after you die? / Hitler was a terrible man?

Hitler was a grown man; he knew damn well that he was hurting others. Whether or not he viewed them as equal to his "superior" people is irrelevant.

Oh please. The Jews are essentially the predecessors of Christians and we all know Hitler was Christian. He could easily have rationalized that they don't deserve death. Also, Jesus said to treat others as you wish to be treated (something which is sadly ignored by many fundies). Hitler ignored that.

But most of all, Hitler ignored the story of the Good Samaritan. The big mistake nowadays is that most people equate Samaritan with Good Deeds, so they miss the point of the story. But back then, Samaritans were hated. The point of the story is that it's not your religion or nationality or anything that determines things, it's your acts, and Hitler could have admitted that. But no, he was a man obsessed.


So, Zelgadis, if you were raped, and your family murdered, would you want the people who did that act simply getting away scott-free to a paradise resort?

 

I understand that, but I don't bloody care how "horrible" his childhood was. It doesn't justify his slaughter.

Edit: Rather it does not excuse his slaughter.

 

In a real sense nothing I say can work because it is impossible. We cannot go without feeling a need for retribution. I only would like to say and believe that something in his environment motivated him to such an extent that killing of jews was not a problem for him. Of course consciously he knew the results, but he had a justification from somewhere and therefore he felt it was rational to committ those acts. In a sense his environment's programming influenced what he did later on, the environment he lived in was anti semitic and therefore he was affected as well. Blacks were segrated why? They certainly were citizens of U.S.A, why should they recieve inferior treatment as compared to their fellow countrymen? It is because of the circumstances of the time that made that happen it was not until later that changed. The people in The South controlled and knew what was happening even so it was allowed regardless obviously they did not do this without a prior influence of some sort and therefore with that logic they found justification for their actions. I don't believe that we are totally at fault with our actions, even if it goes against normal human thinking and is negative in its result.

 

So because it wasn't a problem for him, no retribution should be made? If I give the wrong answer on a math test because I thought I was right, that doesn't mean my answer is right because I THOUGHT it was right.

Does that justify it?

Obviously they shouldn't.

That doesn't make it right.

That STILL does not justify it.

Of course we aren't completely at fault for our actions. We ARE shaped by our environment. However, that does not justify wrong-doings.

Zelgadis, if an American decided to drive on the right side of the road in Britain because thats what he grew up with and it's what he knows, that doesn't make it right.

 

I was only saying that he is not totally at blame for his actions, and further showing that point with an example. As of now his reasoning has no justification, but he was not totally at fault for his actions. I don't believe committing two wrongs will make something right nor will committing two rights make something wrong. I don't believe that he should recieve retribution for something he did not control totally although he pulled the trigger he had to gain the want to do it as well as the means before it happened. But of course what I say is impossible for humanity cannot allow it to be ignored because of the extent and nature of that action.

 

He's responsible for his actions ultimately. He may have had influences but he never had to listen to those influences.

And I don't believe people who commit serious wrongs should be rewarded despite what they did.

Ok then, should we punish Hitlers parents, the monestary he lived near, and every other influence instead?

You can only place so much blame on the influences. It was his choice to accept them as truth, and his choice to continue to accept them as truth later on, and his choice to wage war and commit genocide.

So, what, you aren't human?

Wrong. Even Buddha believed in karma, the belief that your actions will come back to you, and if they're bad, they'll bite you in the *** (or if they're good, good stuff will happen to you).

Once again, it isn't bloodlust I'm craving here. It's balancing an equation. You do, after all, reap what you sow.

 

i don't believe that ( karma stuff ). i do good and get nothing but hurt. i do bad and get the same thing. i believe that you live and nothing else until death. because i think death is another form of life( or something like that ) :catgirl:

 

i cannot see the sense in what you are saying Zelgadis. like Neph said, hitler DID have a choice to not repeat what went on in his environment. No, i believe he chose to do murder all those millions of people because...plainly said, he was a maniac. but that does not mean that it was not his fault, it was. You know why? because he was too weak minded and he did not have to be, example: a man who was abused all his life knew what was wrong and right because he experienced it first hand, he made a choice to not repeat the cycle of abuse because he knew the wrong in it. So he raised a family making sure that no abuse came to them because he had first hand that experiance. moral of the story: you have a choice and in hitlers case his choice was to keep the cycloe going but not towards his children ( thank the gods he had none) but towards not just jews but other people too so in my opinion it was a shame that hitler did not die a horrible death.

 

Who said the benefits were immeadiate?

 

... Starting to sound like the juvenile prison system over here. Getting PS2's in there cells etc for good behaviour

& the school truancy dealing system in England (Not sure they ever brought it over this side of the border, probably did), punish the parents for the childs actions.

Not that im taking sides in this particular way of dealing on this topic... just thought id mention the comparison.

Oh & about the origenal topic on this... Pine box, thats all thats left when you die (Well ok some might get an Oak box, what do i know)

 

Wrong. I'm going to have an urn.

 

Actually after thinking about it seems to me that neither points can really work alone but rather as a mixture they can work together. Nephillim has a point in that considering the severity of the action it is only logical to seek vengeance for it. Nephillims point about balancing the equation certainly has validity in this case, with the extent of his actions and the severity of it retribution seems the only way to balance it. Unfortunately I don't think that thinking works in every case, Is it right to seek vengeance against someone who killed in self defense? Sure killing them would balance the equation but would it be right? What if someone accidently maimed a person while driving their vehicle, it was not deliberate but still shall we balance the equation and maim that person as well amissing the circumstances of the action? Shall we only look at the results rather than the cause of it? In some cases retribution to balance the equation may be necessary although I would still oppose it even so it would probably be necessary considering the extent and severity and the natural incline of human nature. But I don't believe that equating the equation as Nephillim said holds validity in every case. If it was unavoidable they were unwilling participants in this action, if they did not know what they were doing why make them suffer anyway? I would rather everyone be happy than a few suffer for a misunderstand action that even through at the time it seemed a logical move in reality it was illogical and ignorant of humanity. Of course this is too idealistic for some to hold, but regardless If I find a afterlife I would rather everyone find that fulfilment they searched for whatever and however misguided it is, atleast in that way we can all be happy rather than being damned even if it was not wholeheartly their choice.

 

You are inherently influenced by your surroundings evolution even shows that. Thinking in rational human terms yes he is a maniac, but that is only because I am judging his actions not his motives and learning. He may have been abused I have no clue into that, Let us think as Hitler may have he may have saw this is justified because of the anti semitism of the time or because of personal convictions or possibly another reason but regardless unless he was placed in a vacuum his logic would be forever warped by this thinking. There is more to that than this through as well as that the times he lived in made him brutal, he lived in a depression era Germany he served in WWI as corporal as well may be learning what brutality can do and then being forever changed by it. Regardless he may have saw brutality as the only means of control, if thats how he learned to get up in society surely in a warped way he saw it the only way of doing things. I don't believe Hitler had any real logic in attacking the Jews I see it as he was using them as a scapegoat to gain control from which he would use the brutality he learned to maintain it. Hitler had the right circumstances and abilities to take control and from what he learned he held it the way he knew worked through iron control. Of course if all of humanity were like this we would have many Hitlers running about, but it is not that way humanity is not just effected by their environment but their personality as well in this case Hitler had the right circumstances and personality to become what he did, he is not to be totally at blame for he is but a human as we all are and such a thing can happen to anyone as well given the right circumstances.

 

Good.

Never said it did.

No, but I wouldnt punish them for defending themselves to begin with unless it was excessive "defense".

No, but self defense is hardly comparable to genocide.

You're assuming I'm working on a basis of 1 = 1. It could easily be 1+1+3-(1.5*2) = 2.

Once again, I'm talking about paying for sins, not eye for an eye.

It's not like I want people to suffer. However, if you want to cross a bridge, you have to pay a toll, and I feel that before Hitler could ever experience peace, he would have to, in some way, pay for the atrocities he caused.

I don't care if he had a crap childhood. I'm not going to forgive him for his "justified temper tantrum" as if it was nothing major.

While true, that doesn't make his crimes any less horrific or justified. It only explains why he did it.

I should hope so.

 

Why must he pay if he did not ask for it? I'm sure Hitler was never asked before birth where he wanted to live or how his behavior should work? Given if their is a god if he just throws people into a situation with full knowledge of what will happen and then forces them to suffer for something they did not ask for by all means that is not my god. Of course this is all hypothetical we may have been asked but we do not remember I have no clue. If he had been brought up in a different environment with a different time say one of complete pacificism by all means it would be impossible for us to see the same person we all know. If he never knew the violence he lived in he would not have perpetuated it as he did.

 

Zelgadis, it sounds like you're a follower of B.F. Skinner to the hilt. He argued that, either through God or some other huge entity, humans have no freedom at all in their actions. Their actions are 100 percent the result of God (If you believe in him) or the environment (If you don't). I'm paraphrasing quite a bit, but that's the gist of it. Therefore, he'd agree with Zelgadis by saying that Hitler won't be punished in the afterlife (If there is one), because he had zero control of his actions.

Not saying I agree or disagree - Just thought I'd let everyone know that there IS a school of thought that agrees with this philosophy.

 

knowone said they would. but i think that if you put in something ( like money in a church basket ), then you should get something back. that dosen't mean that it has to come right away, but what if it comes after you die and gets handed to some stupid x wife you had?then what good would it have done you? thats why i believe what happens happens not in fate or destiny( even though people call me fate ).