Debate Where are the real psychics?

I don't know, I guess it might just be me, but personally I would think that if there were real full-blown psychics and the likes out there they'd probably have grown up as your average Joe and liked it that way now that they realize they're different and wouldn't want to exploit their secret power for the sole purpose of fame and fortune. At least, I know I wouldn't. *shrugs* Sure, money is nice, but I'm not going to make a circus-attraction-freak out of myself in front of everyone just to do it.

 

People with special powers who actively use them (such as psychic detectives, paranormal communicators, or healers), usually aren't in it for the money. They respect their powers, plus, you can't really make a lot of money in practical ways. They have their normal jobs too.

As for that "10% of the brain" thing, Nephilim you got proved wrong by Jaken, so you simply change the subject? And you insult him? I started this thread to see what people think, not to have smarter people pick on everyone else.

And That Guy, if we see lights in the sky that we can't explain, technically, those are UFOs! (Unidentified Flying Object, which is something that you can't identify.) Once we find out it was a plane, star, an alien spaceship, or devilish fireball shot by a mystical creature, then it's an IFO (Identified Flying Object), because it's been "identifed."

 

What, because I called him out on an unsourced claim?

Also, his wording is clumsy. Potential is not the same as amount.


Edit: To clarify what I mean by that, lets say you're lifting free weights and in the process of one motion use 10% of your muscle mass. You're using 10% of your muscles PERIOD, not 10% of the potential muscles you could use, since some are not designed for that function.

 

that can't be helped, wheather you're arguing for or against you're going to have to make assumptions on this topic, because it's impossible to proove either way.

i know that . it was an analogy. what's to stop a hypnotist taking advantage of someone once they have complied. It's the same for phychics, they may say they 'respect their power' (assuming they have any) but i think it would be incredibly naive to think they wouldn't, given the opportunity.

as for detective phychics, phychics rarely venture from the mundane and generalizations, i think if there was a phychic dectective who could actually solve a case based on phychic ability it would be a sensation, although any evidence would most likely be immisable in court.

 

Yes, but yours are far more extreme.

Great, an analogy you know is incorrect.

The fact that you're still aware of what you're doing and if it too strongly contradicts their values they can break out? You don't black out, you damn well know what you're doing and its still YOU in control, you're just more willing to not worry about minor consequences.

How do you know they are just smart enough to go about it very subtlely so we think they're normal?

So therefore because of a few generalized cases, it totally invalidates the possibility of psychics?

What about psychics that are right? What about personal foresight in dreams?

Read this. http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/psi/tucson.html

Regardless theres enough evidence to go either way and turn this into more of an opinionfest.

 

I believe there are people who can see things beyond the physical. And this has to do more with spiritual "forces" than on the brain.

For example, there was the time when I could focus and describe some chatter's room, the paintings in there, etc . Altho i never got a confirmed proof of it because i was never given real pictures of that. But the pepole around told me it was amazing. Self-delussion? I don't know.

What I know is that after i began "developing" these powers (meditation, stuff), WEIRD stuff began happening. Hearing voices, having visions of people dying - horrible deaths, and stuff. There was a time when I nearly went crazy thanks to these "voices". I wanted to pray for help, but couldn't!!

Conclusion: This stuff was EVIL. Demons involved. (yeah not to mention dreams and visions related with demons - trust me, you don't want to see what i saw).

Anyway, about telekinesis and spoon bending, you'd be amazed at how many psychics were a fraud. Most of us believe in psychics because we want to believe it, not because there is proof about that. Visit http://www.randi.org/ - they offer $1,000,000 to the anyone who can prove that he has TRUE psychic powers. The trick of course, in a controlled environment (no cheating). So far no person has earned the million dollars.

It's so Ironic that we believe in psychics because false psychics made us (or the people before us - social inertia) believe that. Even _AFTER_ they were proven faudulent.

So, well... being a psychic is a VERY romantic idea. Who doesn't want to move things with his or her mind, and be "special"? Anyway, during my "psychic development" times, i learned that prayer is much powerful than psychics. I said to myself: If people have a problem, why don't they go to people who can pray for them and actually solve the problem, instead of going to psychics who at most are nothing but "mere observers" of their problems?

I say this because after a psychic reading I gave to a girl, I had a vision where I was kneeling before God. (In my vision I didn't see God, just myself - but I knew I was kneeling before Him - in the vision I could only see His robe and sandals, he was sitting in a throne). And in that vision i asked Him to help this woman and her family problems. He said: "She is fine, I'm working on that".

And this shocked me. Why don't people go to those who can pray for them? Why don't psychics pray for their customers?

The reality shocked me when one of my psychic friends (she could see auras) told me that she didn't believe in God.



If her powers didn't come from the Divine, where could they come from? And she did believe in the astral plane and all that *shudders*

So I became a Christian (much more spiritual experiences go here), and found myself helping much more people than I could while being a "psychic".

(Did you know that the "Astral Plane" stuff was invented by a fake-psychic called Madame Blavatski? She was proven a fraud. What I don't understand is how many books on the subject were published, even when the author herself was forgotten.

Anyway, Interesting story, ne? What do you think?

 

Then Joan of Arc is evil because she heard a voice? What about whoever foresaw the events of Revelations? He saw plenty of awful, horrible things. Does this make him evil? Does this make the supposedly divine source evil?

Edit: And what about psychics who CAN pray?

Secondary edit: And if you believe it doesn't come from God, who says it necessarily MUST come from an evil source and is not a neutral/natural development?

So.... the point is...

You're confusing "not believing in God" with "tapping in to another source". If I don't believe in Ontario Hydro, that doesn't mean my electricity comes from somewhere else.

So? If I wanted I could come up with plenty of reasons to shudder at people who believe in the Bible. I'm not going to so this thread can stay on topic, but I'm still wondering precisely why different beliefs are something to shudder at anyway when you have no reason to shudder.

Proof? What about religions older than Blavatski who mention similar or identical realms?

Reactionary witch-hunt using one example to damn the rest.

 

hell i had that during high school... tis called stress induced hallucinations (In my case anyway... suppose it could happen the other side of the stress/calmed affect... but dont ask for proof, im jammering now)

Having beleifs as such is fine & respected etc etc... but try to involve it in a debate thread... prepare to be tackled (Not by me though, i think you will have enough on your plate with the above person )

 

Whatever Madame Blavatski said the astral plane was, we can still use the term astral plane to describe a state of being that some people can reach. (Like in out of the body experiences.)

It's perfectly fine to have psychic powers and not have any religion or belief in God. Kids can have powers before ever being introduced to church (and usually kids are the ones with subconscious minds that allow them to see auras much easier than adults). Look at Neo-Pagans... they don't believe in God, but in the Goddess, or perhaps even many gods and goddesses.

 

OK OK let me correct.

As a Christian, (and I'm talking to all christians in here), we all believe that God rules over all beings - either visible or invisible (physical or spiritual).

So, according to christian cosmogony, spiritual inspirations and/or visions can only come from God Himself, angels/saints, or demons.

There cannot be a spiritual source "independent" from God. As if God had been set aside.

Ergo: demons.

OK i hope I have explained myself now.

As for non-christians...
believe what you want. You're free to do so

 

OK, now for a step-by-step answer to Nephilim_X (a.k.a. "the above person" ).

I was one, and after lots of prayer I came to quit psychics. Draw your own conclusions.

God is above all. Angels and saints are under God's ruling. So, if it's not an angel/saint, and it doesn't come from God, what choices do we have left? Fairies? Pixies? Well, as a Christian I don't believe in these things. Ergo: demons.

Now, to clarify my "demonic" conclusion, I have to add: After contacting my angels became a regular thing, I ended up contacting them for trivial matters, in other words, becoming addicted to their "advise".


Premise: If a spiritual gift comes from God (or is allowed by God), it MUST have a positive effect on our spiritual and mental health. (More or less what I remember from Ignatius of Loyola)
Data: My "spiritual" psychic gift was having terrible effects on my spiritual and psychological health.

Conclusion: It wasn't allowed from God.

Cite them. This is what debates are about

 

So because you quit, that invalidates the ones I know who do but don't quit?

How wonderfully egocentric of you.

How do you know it's not a naturally occuring ability, sort of like how some people can wiggle their ears and some can't? Furthermore, I could say that my tap water streams out of the *** of a giant pink fluffy elephant, but that doesn't mean it is coming from that magical elephant.

That's weakness of character on your part, not inherently evil powers. Consider the person who begs God to let them go out with someone.

I mean, sometimes I have money, and people have used money in evil ways in the past. Does this necessarily mean that I will as well? Tonight I drank a shot of whisky mixed with Pepsi to celebrate getting a big project done, does this necessarily mean I'm going to go kill someone in a drunken rage now?

Read a freakin' book on the subject and the first thing it'll teach is how you must know not to rely upon it addictively.

It's your fault you were addicted. I mean, God also gave me the ability to hold my breath. But if I hold my breath too much, I'll physically injure myself. Does this mean the ability to hold ones breath is therefore bad and evil?

Furthermore, prove that your religious beliefs on this issue are correct. You've got a lot of talk about your (biased) religion, but so far nothing but a personal anecdote you're using to judge 100% of the psychic population.

What about psychic people with perfectly normal spiritual and psychological states?

"In Buddhist teachings there is no hell. The Buddha said that there were "heavenly states", meaning heaven like astral realms where Gods, Devas, and other beings traversed."

From: http://home.earthlink.net/~thegriffon/buddhism/buddhism_01.htm

"Beyond the physical, the realm of gross form, it says that there exists the astral realm in which various spirits, gods and angels exist..."

From: http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/hinduism/religious_and_spiritualpractices/page29.htm

Theres two religions older than the fraud which mention astral realms. Check and mate.

 

Re: OK OK let me correct.

That's wonderful, but in a debate, unfounded views are worthless.

Edit: Whoops, missed this section... so how are all other cosmologies invalidated because your religion says that? If you want to believe that it's fine but ultimately there isn't much to prevent someone from using their own cosmology to counter it.

What about ghosts?

Of course I could always push the Prometheus, Lucifer and Evil debate on you, but that would be too easy...

Then you can say you feel it isn't right, but to conclude that all are wrong is silly, especially when theres about as much proof for one major religion as the next.

 

Well i can Say ive been to a psychic for fun.. something to do. yada yada. Anyway this one was not all that good. A few things She told me were true.. the rest was a bunch of Bull. But one has to remember never to take them 100% seriously anyway.. But I have a second cousin who goes off and on.. And has had some in the past tell her things that made her believe 100% in there abilities, ONe even told her a list of things without ever asking her one question about herself or her having to speak a word and it freaked her right out because he was dead on in what he said.

And i do think that some can tell fortunes.. Events that may or may not happens, Events that have happened that you did not mention to them. so on and so on..



How does one explain it.. will probably never know. But there is one thing you should know..

So dont let science keep you from still believing in magic.

KAMe

 

Re: Re: OK OK let me correct.

I never said that.

I'm just exposing my personal conclusion on psychics, based on my knowledge of christian cosmogony.

If you don't believe in christianity, OF COURSE that my statements do not apply.

doh.

[EDIT]

OK OK before everyone starts bashing me:

I only proposed my interpretation of the catholic view on psychics. I'm not saying that they DO NOT exist. I'm just saying that the source of these psychic abilities, according to the Catholic Church, is devilish.

NOW, not everything supernatural can be classified as "psychic". But that goes beyond the scope of this *particular* debate.

*sigh* ok now i'm finished.
[/EDIT]

 

Re: Re: Re: OK OK let me correct.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, I'm gonna have fun with this one, folks!

http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/hs980916.htm

Specifically this quote...

"...it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour..."

In other words, right there, STRAIGHT FROM THE FREAKIN POPE HIMSELF, is confirmation that it doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are provided you stay true to what you believe and follow your personal moral compass. Hence, if Random Psychic Number 25328 believes that there is no wrong in their abilities, regardless of what you say, they are completely in the clear.

Personally I view blaming the devil for anything is weakness to accept responsibility.

 

LOL, that's taking things off context, Neph.

1) Notice that the quote mentions that God is the one doing the invitation.
2) This paragraph speaks about SALVATION. Not about psychic powers.

3) You should read the Catechism on "divination" and things regarding the first commandment.

"Muahahah..."
doh.

 

I take nothing out of context. Here is that quote in laymans terms...

Even if you believe something which is not catholic, you are saved provided you stay true to your religion and your own morality.

Morality does not simply encompass "salvation", it also encompasses "sin" (or rather immoral acts).

And honestly, do you think a holy document is going to be completely unbiased coming from the head of the religion? Of COURSE it's going to still say that the Abrahamic God is still the right one.

But ultimately, think about what that quote implies: essentially, all beliefs are valid.

Now, you also say divination is wrong. What about all the prophets and the Book of Revelations? That's a prophecy right there, and prophecy is a form of divination.

Now, as far as the Ten Commandments go, well, how do you cope with your own religions leader contradicting that?

 

OK we're going for the tangent. But for the sake of the argument, I will answer you.

Prophecy, as in the Old Testament, is where the prophet is contacted directly by God and tells the people the message he has been handed to tell.

Divination, on the other hand, is doing something to gather information about the future (or something related). It is not being an instrument of God to fulfill His will, but rather using God to fulfill ours.

The book of Revelations is another counterexample. The prophet (in this case, apostle John) was handed a message by the Lord, in the form of visions. An angel explains to him what some of the visions mean.

See the last words of the book, where he is told that he should not add nor remove from the book.

Now compare with the book of Kings, where Saul consults a witch. He is accursed. Later in the book of chronicles, we read that Saul was dead because of this sin.

Quite a difference indeed.

 

How do you know psychic visions aren't from God though? After all, not all psychic abilities are active (as in being used at will). Some are passive (coming at random times whether you want them or not. My personal experiences lie in the latter field.)

How do we know it was really God though? Couldn't it theoretically have been a demon, or just some really weird dream/drug trip? The book may SAY it was God, but that doesn't mean it was.

So? For all we know it was actually entirely made up in order to control the populace via fear that they were heading for an allmighty smack-down. If one could not change the law, and one would be damned to eternal suffering for questioning the law, the vast majority of people would indeed be shepherded by this law, whether it's just or not.

Of course, the OT also features God murdering millions by his own hands in addition to his orders to the Hebrews and damning those who eat shellfish, wear shirts made of more than two fabric, endorsing slavery, racism, sexism and other sickening nonsense. Are any of those just? I do not feel a kind and loving God would do any of those things; rather whatever gave those orders was either man himself (the most believable answer) or (provided it was actually a supernatural source) a demon.

But ultimately you've still yet to prove that psychic abilities are inherently wrong, evil and originate from an evil source. You've given one anecdote (which is countered by my own experiences and the experiences of others) and some Bible quotes.

I once again wish for you to respond to this: I have the ability to hold my breath. When used in the right situations it can aid my survival and lend itself to discovery. However when used unnecessarily or in excess, it can harm or even kill me.

Does that make it an evil ability that comes from demons? Of course it doesn't, unless you're a shockingly fearful twit.