Cowboy Bebop who's cooler,vicious or spike?

Minutes, seconds, what's the difference? Lol. Ok, so maybe I exaggerated a little. Sorry 'bout that.

 

hmmm whos cooler well I know my cool choice is ...
JET
lol yup me I'm the coolest of them all

p.s. in secret I voted for vicious

 

Vicious is cool, but Spike is much cooler. Probably because Spike is a more complex character than Vicious. That's partly because the series doesn't describe Vicious as much as Spike, but my vote still goes to Spike.

 

SPOILERS AHOY!

I just wanted to comment...

Someone was making a comment that Spike died later than Vicious, for the reason that he was cut and not shot and all that such; but, he was shot several times on his way up, was he not? Not one hundred percent sure, but, yeah...

And I would think it'd be at least a minute or two before Spike actually died as I doubt he stood up and lurched out of that large room in the matter of less than sixty seconds. Probably took a moment or two to catch his breath and all the likes.

Anyways... my vote goes to Spike. Vicious is cool and all I guess, but I just liked Spike better; I guess all in all because we got to see more of Spike than we did of Vicious.

 

Re: SPOILERS AHOY!

SPOILERS************************************





Um.. nope Spike had been shot once before he got to Vicious.. in the upper left hand (not even his gun arm). The only other injury had had was that he was bleeding down his face, which I think happened cuz he hit his head on the floor (the blood suddenly appears right after he ducks from the guy that killed Shin).

Notice here.. that Spike tries to blow Vicious up from outside the room, and then when that does not work, he tries to shoot him from the bottom of the stairs (out of range of the Vicious sword)!! Bleh. i pick Vicious over spike anyday... either way.. moving on..

On top of this, Vicious hit spike with a throwing knife in the shoulder, and cut his leg (while making sure that Spike's gun does not point toward his body for even a second.. if it does. he dies).

The thing that really killed Spike was the final fatal wound... when they both agree to "end it all". Before Vicious is shot, he slices open Spike's entire abdomen.... if you see the unedited version... you'll see about a gallon of blood flow out of Spike's stomach.

Then he tries to leave the room.. stumbling down the stairs.. (no good standing there while the rest of the dragons come to shoot the hell outta him).. desperately clutching his belly to stop the bleeding... but to no avail.. he falls after taking a couple of steps down the stairs.. prolly a few seconds after Vicious died. He NEVER made it out of teh room... he fell in the same room as Vicious did... about 20 feet away maybe.

And youre rite.. the story focused on Spike... I would've liked to see more of Vicious and the Red Dragons instead of episodes about Doohan, or jets lost love... lol

either way, I hope that explains it better

 

PLease Start putting spoiler tags when explaining the ending.. I actualy sugest you go edit your posts now.. any further spoilers with no tags will be deleted..

Second off.. Please go watch the ending and watch it close. For your explanations are flawed..


And anyway Does not matter who is realy cooler.. Its just a matter of opinion..

KaMe

 

**spoilers******************************

Well..... since Yamegirl and Cunningservant who posted before me in this thread revealed the fact that Spike died, and your own earlier post didn't warn them about it, I assumed it was all right...

But yes, I admit you're right about my posts (which dont have warnings)... my apologies..

youre right.. its a matter of opinion.. and i respect other peoples... the only reason why i posted was because someone said spike had gotten shot several times... which I KNOW didn't happen..

My explanation is wrong? I have watched the episode closely... please point out where the explanation is flawed.

 

Definitely Spike. I think if there was a guy in real life who looked like him I would end up marrying him!

 

Well ive not been looking to much lately.. Just making sure there spamming is 0 to none.. And normaly for small spoilers ill let them go.. but lately the past several threads are Spoiler Happy..


SPOILERS************************************

It never shows where he got the cut on his face.. one min he does not have it.. then next when he comes out of the elevator he is cut. He is then Shot in the Left Shoulder, Not the hand. Just blood running down his shirt.

Now as far as spike trying to blow vicious up.. thats up in the Air.. Because I often wonder if Vicious has the door Riged to blow, if someone enters univited.

Now the rest of your explanation is just great exagerated.. He slowly limps down the stairs. Holding his gut. Looks up at the other members.. Points his finger and collaps.

Another thing id like to mention is that the red Dragons Fallow the leaders. Some Were with vicious and some always wanted spike back.. And Odds are like most stories most of the members only fallowed Vicious for fear of him having them killed. So once Vicious was killed they would not have killed spike. Its hinted throughout the Series.



But ive seen Bebop Many many times.. Seen it when it first went on DVD. when you could only order it over the net. So Id rather ppl get all the details before posting..and try not to exagerate what happens..

KaME

 

Um.. I meant to say upper left arm... but wrote hand instead.. my bad.. But yes you're right he clutched his upper left arm.. and that was the ONLY time he was shot.... not "several times" like the person above me

Rigged the room to blow up?!?! hahahaa... Thats great.. but I respectfully disagree

1) Look at where the destruction is.. the roof over Vicious' head is all blown off, there's a GIANT HOLE in the roof where Vicious is standing, on top of the stairs ( which is far away from where the door is). if it was a booby trap, then the major destruction would've been around the door itself.

2) We actually SAW Spike using explosives throughout his charge... we never see the existence of any booby traps anywhere in the episode. I am of the opinion, that if there was a booby trap, the creator would've shown it.

Um.. yes, I never said no to that. What part of my explanation is exaggerated? Did Spike not try to shoot Vicious from the bottom of the Stairs? Was Vicious not forced to make the gun point away from his body using a sword? Didn't a LOT a blood flow out of this belly when Vicious struck him? Did he not try to get out by going down the stairs while clutching his belly to stop blood flow? Please tell me exactly what part of my explanation is exaggerated, so I can explain my reasoning

What? The ONLY person I've seen who wanted Spike back was Shin. Why do you say the members followed Vicious because they were afraid of him? Why do you think they helped him out in the execution chamber? They could've just let him die! And why wouldn't they have killed Spike? Here is a man who has attacked their base and just killed a lot of their colleagues.. why wouldn't they shoot him full of holes? you notice on his way up.. only ONE person was trying NOT to kill him, and that was Shin. Everyone else was shooting at him. I don't see any of these "hints" you refer to... The members of the Red Dragons aren't idiots.. a random person can't just assasinate the leader and become the new leader... that would be ridiculous.

Yes, I've seen bebop a lot of times as well.. and I like to keep my facts straight as well... If you can prove me wrong, please.. I welcome it ..I like to have the real facts

 

trust me on the red dragon thing.. If you watch the intire series you will see small hints here and there about how loved Spike Actualy was in the red Dragon clan. For if spike was truely hated they would have shot him up as he came down the stairs.. And dont give me the.. He was already Dead anyway..


And why do i say the room could have been riged.. Well there is Distruction EVERYWHERE.. not just by vicious.. Yes spike had lots of explosives.. but not of that magnatude.. But Whatever either way is a possibility. Never said i was a firm believer in that theory..

And As for how you exagerated.. Read the way you said it.. then the way i said it.. and watch how it happens..

You will notice that you make it sound like he was still fighting to make it home alive..

Oh and a gallon of blood in anime terms is just a paper cut.

KaMe

 

***************spoilers**************************

I HAVE watched the entire series .. and I don't see ANY indication that people Spike was liked more than Vicious by the Clan members. If you've got any specific details, I'll be glad to debate further.. sorry I don't trust anyone As for why they didn't shoot him as he was walking down the stairs.... let me put it this way.. If I saw a man clutching his belly, bleeding from the leg, and the left shoulder, staring down at the floor, descending one single step at a time, without a gun, I wouldn't shoot him either.. If possible I would want to capture him, and take him into an interrogation. (remember at this point the members have don't know if Vicious is dead.. the body is at the top of the stairs).

Yes of course, there's destruction everywhere, but you can clearly see that the area around Vicious has a lot more debris around it, the the roof above Vicious head has been blown through (NOT the roof above the door, through which Spike entered). Of course this corresponds to where Spike wouldve thrown his explosives from the door. That coupled with the fact that Spike was the ONLY one we saw in that battle using explosives, (not to mention the fact that there was not even a hint of a booby trap given) leads me to conclude that Spike was the one who used it. You're of course, free to believe what you wish, and I respect it

Of course he was fighting to make it home alive! He wasn't suicidal! He wasn't just taking a stroll down the stairs!! He was trying to get the hell out, since he knew the red dragons were coming to blow the hell outta him. If he or Vicious couldve killed the other and walked out of that room they wouldve been overjoyed beyond all belief... This isn't some cheesy romance novel where people become suicidal after their lover dies. Just as in real life, Spike would've gotten over Julia..

Yes, in other anime possibly, like Berserk for example.. inordinate amounds of blood everywhere. But CB cannot be grouped with other anime in this department. It has been very reaslistic in terms of blood spilling out of humans atleast in the main five episodes that I've watched repeatedly

 

Okay, I guess I'll add another theory. When Vicious killed the clan leaders(is that what you'd call them?) Vicious became the leader, no? So, when Spike killed Vicious maybe they saw Spike as their leader. Maybe that is a reason they didn't shoot him, whether they liked him or not? :glazed:

Just wondering if this could be the case. Comments on this anyone?

 

Exactly! The Former leaders, Vicious and Spike were the most respected members of the clan.

That is Why I said that shin and others wanted spike around.

KaMe

 

Sorry, but I disagree like I said in my earlier post. The ONLY person I've seen in the Red Dragons who helped Spike was Shin. EVERYONE else was trying to kill him as he charged the headquarters. Spike may have been respected when he was in the mafia (as evidenced by the twins calling him "sir"), but that was three years ago (I read this somewhere, not entirely sure on the number of years.. if you guys know, please correct me with details). Spike abondoned them. He left. So why would the members still respect him?

As I said in my earlier post.. this concept of killing the curent leader and becoming the new leader isn't really possible. The Red Dragons will never accept a leader who they don't think is capable of heading their syndicate. They aren't mindless puppets who just say "yes sir".. they're real people. The new leader needs to have support from many of the members.. and I don't see ANYONE supporting spike except for Shin. Vicious had support from the members.. Lin died for him, and the members helped him out at the execution chamber.. they could've just let him get killed.

Another flaw in the theory. Vicious' body is on top of a really long and high staircase. The red dragons have NO idea whether Vicious is dead or not (all of them are standing at the bottom of the stairs). the body lying flat on the ground wouldn't be even visible from the bottom of the steps.

The reason they didnt shoot him is perfectly clear to me...hes bloody all over... he UNARMED.. hes walking down steps one steps at a time.. he isn't even looking at them... Why not capture this person and interrogate him as to which of their enemies sent him to attack them? If Spike had the gun, and was still attacking they would've blown him to hell... just like they did earlier inthe episode

 

My vote goes to Spike.....he just seems like some one who you would be able to work with better on a job, than that of vicious....know what I mean?


Misao

 

(naturally Some Spoilers)

All in all, the injuries he sustained are as follows:

1. A bullet skims his right cheek
2. He gets shot in the left arm
3. He, some-where along the line, knocks his head (as the blood is flowing down the left side of his face)
4. He takes a throwing-dagger from Vicious into his left shoulder
5. Vicious cuts open his leg, horizontally, a little above the knee
6. The final cut across the belly

Of course, I was wrong about the "being shot several times" thing, but at least I can admit my mistakes.

Anyways... one way of thinking about it... if the Red Dragon, really, believed in Vicious that much because of his strength and ability/capabilities, perhaps they thought that seeing Spike being the one to come down the stairs meant that Spike was the victor; a normal part of human intuition and nature we have to thank for this, really.

Two more comments; one, the one about someone assassinating the leader to become the new leader? Hate to tell you, but that IS the way that it works. That's how it always works in groups such as mobs and mafias. True there are a few people who have respect for the originals (For example, in another anime, Brandon Heat from Gungrave).

Also, I just thought I'd like to point out, in one point of the debate, you are saying that the members should of shot Spike full of holes on his way down, while, just a post or two later, your saying that they have no reason to as he's injured and unarmed. I was just a bit curious about that. ^_^

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

 

*************spoilers*************************

Yes.. a very good list of his injuries .. Its exhaustive I think...tho the cut across the belly is what was fatal.

Have no idea what youre trying to say about Spike being a victor.. Spike and Vicious both lost from my perspective.. neither could kill the other without keeping their lives. And I reiterate.. as Spike was walking down the stairs... the red dragons had no idea that Vicious was dead.. a flat body atop a tall staircase wouldn't be visible.

Hmm.. its the way it is? So youre telling me a stranger can come into a mafia organization, assasinate the leader, and just by doing that they would accept the stranger as the new leader!?!?!?! I dont believe it. Thats like saying if Osama Bin Laden somehow managed to assasinate the US president, the United States people would accept him as the new president. Sounds incredible to me. If you have any documented cases of this.. I'll be glad to take a look

No, I was saying that if Spike had a gun while he was walking down the stairs, and continued to attack them... they would've shot him full of holes. The fact that he DIDN'T have the gun, and wasn't even looking at them is what kept the Dragon members from shooting him. They can capture him and find out who sent him (notice they still had their guns drawn and pointing at him), etc....but he didn't make it down the stairs

 

Exaggeration is not your strong point, just thought I'd point out. The United States is a thoroughly designed system of hierachy in which depending upon certain events that the next person down would take over (IE Vice President, then so on). Mafias are less-structured, although still close-knit where when the leader is assassinated, position can easily be assumed through cut-throat tactics and the likes.

Also, if you can't understand simple terms (such as the metaphorical "victor") and can hardly read without twisting everything out of context (like twisting my mention of mobs and mafias into the well-devised government of the United States), then I can only feel sorry for you. Yet, I suppose I shall give you the right of keeping your own unproven opinion. So, it's yours, keep it. A-a-a-anyways, it's obvious this debate is going nowhere, so, I'm finished. It's been nice wasting time with you.

 

****spoilers**********************************

That was the closest analogy I could come up with. As I said earlier, if you have any documented cases of where a person just walks into a mafia, kills the leader, and expect the others to obey him... please produce them. The concept is quite incomprehensible to me.

I already said in my earlier post that I had no idea what you were trying to say about the red dragons perceiving spike to be a victor (when they have no idea that their boss is even dead).

Been fun wasting time with you as well