Debate The Morning Star, The Lightbringer, Otherwise Known As... LUCIFER

So, what's your in put? Is this guy really the big, bad voodoo daddy he's made out to be by some people? Or y'think he's just taking too much **** and being framed, planted with evidence like he was OJ? Is Lucifer that vengeful and jealous of God, or do you think that maybe there's something that's not being told, a missing part of the story? Let's hear all your input, and remember... We never really one-hundred percent know on these subjects, so it'd be appreciated if you didn't claim you were right. Only I can do that. Capice?

 

who knows, i havnt read the bible yet. Too many forgotten words that mean nothing to me.

Ive just had a thought, what if lucifer was god. How would you know he wasnt? What a predicament.

yah, he could have overthrown god, and how would we know, the bible hasnt been updated for years.

 

There is actually very little about Satan, Abbadon, or whatever you wanna call him/her/it/them in the Bible. In the Christian Bible, anyway.
I have to wonder about a definition of Hell more than of the devil himself, because that's really what it comes down to. If you think of Hell as a prison for the damned, the devil is little more than a warden, and it is quite possible to see him as a necessary evil, and as a force just doing his job, whether he likes it or not. On the other hand, if you see it as a vile pit of blood, pain and destruction where demons scheme and torment the fallen, then you could see the more traditional view, the evil, "seven deadly sins" version. And then there's the definition of Hell presented by Dante in the Inferno, but I'm not even going to get into that right now.

"Satan sucks, but you rock!" (I can't remember who said that)

 

This is true: Do you know why the Bible doesn't talk that much about Satan or Hell, and in old Jewish texts they don't exist at all? Because life was so hard and so miserable that people considered EARTH to be like hell, and they would enter Heaven after enduring their painful life. Only after technology really starting improving life and people discovered other religions did Hell pop up. Weird, huh?

 

i myself am a wiccan(no that does not mean I worship the evil essence that inhabits the world) so i understand that the catholic church has mislead the popular opinion into believing that many things are "evil"( wicca, harry Potter, Elvis), so who's to say they haven't manipulated what the devil origanally was. Plus the original bible has been translated so many times it is definetly not the same as what it was meant to be.

 

rofl!

 

My sentiments exactly. And to think I was beginning to think I'd only find a handful of cool people here. Anyways... so, what, are you the only people with the testicular fortitude to speak up on the subject? C'mon, I wanna hear more.

 

According to the Bible, Lucifer was supposed to be a fallen angel from God. He challenged God's authority and was banashed from "Heaven". He led the armies of "Hell" against Gabriel and the army of Heaven.

This is how the story goes. Lucifer became God's archenemy.

Being catholic, this is what I have been taught.

I am, however, very open to positive theory.

Vic

 

I agree with VM1070...That's the way I was taught as well...and I am also open to positive theory.

 

Has anyone seen the movie Dogma. In that film they hold a really good debate on why Lucifer wanted power. He was tired of only serving God and didn't want to do it for all eternity. So he challenged the throne of heaven and for that he and all his followers got tossed out of heaven.

I don't think Lucifer deserved that punishment. If God is all knowing then couldn't he just have shown Lucifer the right path and explained why they should serve him.

 

Lucifer was banned after the world as created. As proof, a lot of Christians believe he tried (And succeeded) in tainting the Garden of Eden experiment after he Fell. That's why God didn't destroy humanity after the failure of Adam and Eve, because Luicifer had a hand in screwing it up. That's all in the book "Paradise Lost".

And as for why God didn't destroy Lucifer of show him the right path, both are explainable. In the first, it wasn't actually God who fought Lucifer. It was Michael, God's highest angel, who bested him and personally kicked him out of Heaven (It's rumored that the other demons, upon seeing this, found their own way out). Why Michael didn't destroy Lucifer is kind of fuzzy, but either he wasn't powerful enough to by himself (Since Lucifer is also one of the first beings God created) or he and the rest of the angels were hoping that Lucifer would eventually see the error of his ways.

And as to why God didn't show Lucifer the right path, you can bet that he tried. Lucifer's crucial flaw was that he was extremely proud of his existence and his power. When God decided that humans were to be the focal point of His energy and not angels anymore, Lucifer just couldn't take it anymore. He's now so wrapped up in his own delusions and madness that he can't see the right path (Whatever that is), even if God personally showed it to him. Pride does that to people.

Anyway, I HIGHLY recommend anyone who's interested in this stuff to read "Paradise Lost" by John Milton. It's pretty difficult to read through, but definitely worth it.

 

"lucifer is good" in more detail: "I believe the bible enough to accept his existance, but not enough to take it's word when it says he is evil" I still think anyone who claim Lucifer is a good guy is just screaming for attention

 

What Bible have you been reading? I've never seen that in any of my texts.

 

Actually it was Gabriel who fought Lucifer not Michael.

 

Not in Paradise Lost, and nowhere I've read. A direct quote from pinkmonkey.com (A sort of online Cliff's Notes):

• MICHAEL

Michael is the warrior archangel. He leads the heavenly forces in the War in Heaven, with Gabriel as his second-in-command. It is Michael who engages in single combat with Satan, challenging him first in a speech where he threatens to send him to Hell. In their battle, which is like a conflict between two planets in its enormous scope, Michael wounds Satan with his great two-handed sword. It brings the fight to an end, but Satan soon
recovers.

God chooses Michael to carry out the judgment that Adam and Eve must leave the Garden of Paradise. Adam understands the significance of the choice as soon as he sees him: Michael is armed, dressed in military splendor. He has come to carry out a sentence, although with grace and mercy.

• GABRIEL

Gabriel has the somewhat thankless job of guarding Paradise. It is thankless because Satan slips by Gabriel and the guards twice. After the first occasion, when Gabriel, Ithuriel, and Zephon confront Satan, Gabriel is willing to fight him, but God forbids with a sign in the sky.

By the way, the link is http://www.pinkmonkey.com/booknotes/barrons/paradis11.asp

Where did you hear that it was Gabriel who fought him, Raven?

 

Paradise Lost is not the Bible. In fact right now i looking it up in the Bible to see who fought Satan.

 

Revelation 12, Lines 7-9. I quote the New American Standard Bible:

7: And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8: and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, and deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

There's much more, of course, but those three lines should prove that it's Michael leading the charge.

 

Actually, technically it doesn't really prove anything except that that's what the Bible says. As it's been pointed out before in this thread just because a book (or for you anal retentive people "the book") says it's so doesn't make it fact. Who knows what was sugar-coated or what was changed or what was mistranslated or misinterpreted or misunderstood. Unless, of course, God tells us himself... and with that I leave you with this...

Metatron: When some yahoo claims he's talking to God, he's really talking to me... or he's just talking to himself.

Yeah, I was watching Dogma last night...

 

Well, remember Zack, I'm an atheist so I don't think the Bible proves ANYTHING. I'm just saying that Raven wanted to know if the Bible said that Michael fought Satan, so I obliged.