Debate The Morning Star, The Lightbringer, Otherwise Known As... LUCIFER

But you said that it "proved Michael lead the charge", when in fact, the only thing it remotely proves is that the Bible says that's what happened. Gotta be more careful with your wording there.

 

I'm not going to get into the discussion -- just want to point something out. ^^;

Keep in mind that the Bible as most people know it has gone through MANY people before getting to you, and it was translated by people who may or may not have had the best intentions or inclinations when it was in their hands. Heck, odds are your Bible was translated from the manuscripts that aren't even the originals, just transcripts of them. And we don't know what happened when the scrolls were being transcribed, do we?

Same goes for anything translated, really... much like Beowulf by ABeka...

Not trying to thwart your system of beliefs -- just poking at your brains so they'll be ready to look beyond what's held out to you. You never know if you'll see traces of mustard on the arms of the lady handing you a plate of cheescake. ^_~

 

Satan! Now that's a pretty fiery debate topic! Are there any Satanists here? If anyone starts talking about Satanism, that person should mention what they know about Anton LaVey. Lots of everyday people have no clue what true Satanism is about. It's actually a pretty decent belief system...

As for Satan himself, I don't know much. My family is Catholic but I don't know much about my own religion, or even go to church anymore. Overall I think Satan isn't really that evil. Just cuz you wanna think differently from everyone else doesn't mean you're evil. I think of him as the first major non-conformist.

 

Okay, Revelations was written somewhere around the time of Christ, hence its usual inclusion in the Apocrypha (the collection of letters, etc.), which concerns things after the death of JC. Also, Revelations was a prediction of the future. Anyway, the fact that elements of the Old Testament (i.e. the book of Genesis) include references to the devil (as, por ejemplo, the serpent that told Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) really counts out this as anything relevent. Satan was obviously around long before Revelations was written, so unless you want to count out the four Christian Gospels, and all of the Old Testament, this proves nothing.

 

An interesting tidbit here: Whether or not you acknowledge Lucifer as pure evil or not, no matter how much you despise and hate him, you must acknowledge that he has his use.

Let me explain it this way.

A muscle gets stronger after it works out a lot. It doesnt start out strong, you need to build that muscle up. Similarly, ones moral character becomes stronger or weaker depending upon their reactions in situations requiring ethical consideration and such. While you can certainly say you wouldn't do something, all that talk isn't worth a hill of beans. Its your actual actions that determine whether or not you flexed that muscle enough.

So, in a way, by providing temptation, the Lucifer concept actually technically assists in improving moral character.

Additionally, many say that God's greatest gift is that of free will.

What good is free will if there are only perfect, good choices to make? It'd be like playing a game where you are guaranteed victory no matter what you do: ultimately boring and worthless.


A side note: I am in no way claiming that the devil is good. And personally I feel mankind is his own devil. Ultimately, it's you pulling the trigger so to speak, and saying "the devil made me do it" is like running away for fear of responsibility for the action.

Another interesting side note: Several claim that ultimately the satan figure will be redeemed. Additionally, due to the many translation errors, many fail to recognize that there is no direct devil entity in the old testament.

On mistranslations: The Bible is does have several, among them the Nephilim controversy and the less recognized Shem issue.

 

Nephilim_X, you have really just said it all. The Taoists say that out of knowledge of good arises knowledge of evil, and out of the knowledge of light arises awareness of dark.
And the stuff on free will I've been saying for years. It really all comes down to human nature and individuality.

 

*claps for Neph*

Without darkness, there can be no light. That's about right, I think. In my opinion. I don't know a lot about the Bible, I've never taken church very seriously. I'm not particularly religious either, but I have my beliefs about God and such, as everyone does. Goodness cannot be proven unless tested, and to be tested choices have to be made. My question is: there are certain things that can be considered good and bad, right? I find it interesting to try and define what society has set as standards for the human race. Something can be good in one case, but considered bad in another. Who says we have the right to define these things?

But on the other hand, if we don't do it who will? So much controversy people! Someone once introduced to me that there WAS no good or bad, wrong or right. Just a line we walk on, and when we cross it, either way....it causes a reaction around us. That REACTION can be good or bad, wrong or right, and determine what happens next in that person's life. Or something like that. I think there's good and bad though. I just don't know how to define it. ****ed right up it is.

 

Heheheh! Yeah, that's why I neither hate nor love neither God nor Satan. "Jesus-Freaks" these days don't understand that. They're always saying "Oh I LOVE Jesus SO much! I hate Satan with every fire my Lord lends me!" I'm not saying that to Christians in general--I said Jesus-Freaks.

To me, Natas is my peer (the lil devil on my shoulder) when I invoke the emotions and values that the Jesus-Freaks believe to be sinful.

 

Another thing is that a person is not born with a default knowledge of whether or not each individual action is "good" or "bad".

Granted most individuals by default consider something like aggressive murder and rape wrong and such, but even in 1 culture you'll find many varying opinions on things like sexuality, religious beliefs, drug use and such. Said opinions are formed by environment, upbringing, education, religious influences if any and peer pressure, among other things.

So in other words, what is shocking and atrocious to one person is simply run of the mill stuff for another.

Interesting, no?

 

You put up an excellent argument Neph. That is very interesting theory.

 

^^^ thats what i was told and got bashed into my brain when i was younger lucifer was gods right hand man but he wanted to be god he started to make armies in heaven and going against god until the time came when god banished lucifier from heaven. and sent him down to hell right along with the angles that truned on him

 

Just thought I'd throw this out there:

If anyone wants to read a little, interesting tidbits on Lucifer, check out the White Wolf core book for Demon: The Fallen. Albeit a fictional book, one for a role-playing game, it's kind of interesting to read.

 

Sorry I haven't come back to this post to look it over. I believe there is no need for church if you believe there are higher essences in this world that need to be worshipped you should be able to do it from your own home. I think the church is a bit like valentines day it was created totally for consumer intrest. Think about it. The message most churches send out is you come to church and give us money to build more churches or your gonna go to hell and writhe in pain for all eternity. Just look at the whole catholic church preist sexual harrassment thing or Andrea Yates or Waco. All these people were miss led by the church into believing them their familieswere going to suffer if they didn't do as the church told them. What does this have to do with Lucifer? Well what if Lucifer was changed from simply being the ying of the universe the evil that has to exist for there to be good into a fire breathing demon by the church.

 

I don't understand how...

If Lucifer got kicked out of heaven, then he must be pissed off. So when people die, they get judged by God, and if they get sent to hell, then what happens? Why would Lucifer torture unsaved souls if that's what God wants him to do? Wouldn't Lucifer rather be glad to be with people who didn't side with Jesus? If my boss kicked me out of his mansion and had me live and rule over the cellar, you think I'd be whipping his ex-employees that he fired and sent to live with me? They'd be more like my allies, so why would I torture them?

 

Well, the way I understand it, God never INTENDED for Lucifer to be in charge of ne'er-do-wells. It's just that after Hell was formed and Lucifer was thrown there and left on his own, he and his demons began corrupting humanity (Remember, there weren't "evil" humans before Lucifer Fell). God couldn't let such tainted beings into Heaven, and he also couldn't keep them on earth. So he sent them to the only place he could, where Lucifer was.

As for the torture thing, it's not that God WANTS bad people to be tortured (Well, that actually depends on whether you believe God is inherently Good or Selfish; everyone has their own opinion on that), but Lucifer's demonlings just get a kick out of destroying miserable souls. And since God has banished them to Hell, he doesn't really have control of what goes on over there (If he sent angels to Hell, he'd risk triggering Armageddon). And remember one last thing: Lucifer isn't evil to selective people; he's just EVIL, period. He doesn't care WHO he's torturing, be they good, bad or indifferent. Hell is just a playground for his servants.

 

Oh please, if we're talking about God as he is usually portrayed, that means he is all powerful and can do whatever he pleases. He created Hell, and he could probably quite easily destroy it, and if not that, then seal it off, or just wipe out Satan and his demons with ease. As for impure souls, God could easily just plunk 'em into a pocket dimension.

No, there has to be reasons for the continued existence. (see my big huge theory on the need for this in a prior post in this thread)

 

I see now, so Satan just fools around with souls that happen to be in hell. Even if God was all powerful, he'd probably see the use of hell (for sending bad souls to) so he doesn't destroy it.

If there was an entity claiming to be Satan, how would you react to it?

 

Strategic alliance followed by betrayal.

Seriously, I don't really know. I'd pretty much just stay out of the matter until I knew the facts.

 

So you'd just ignore the entity? For me, I'd try to be friends with it, see if it's smart, see if it really is Satan, etc. If it does something I don't like, I can send it away.