Debate The Morning Star, The Lightbringer, Otherwise Known As... LUCIFER

Since when did not getting involved immeadiately equal ignoring?

No, I would observe it before making any decisions. For all we know, that could actually be an angel or even God claiming to be the incarnation of evil to see how we actually respond to it, in some odd form of judgement.

Edit: And if it really is the devil, would it actually listen to your requests for it to leave?

 

Well, I figured if you chose not to be involved with something, that wouldn't be the same as being involved with it later on. And I didn't say you'd ignore it, I was only asking if you'd ignore it. Plus I don't think you could sit back and observe an entity since usually they're in your face in a spiritual setting. I didn't mean, you walk down the street and you see a crowd of people surrounding this creature that's saying it's Satan. A spiritual meeting with an entity is fairly direct, and the rules of ethics work similarly in the astral plane--someone talks to, you should address them back, not sit back and "observe," especially in the presence of what may be a pretty nuts being. (Satan!) And yes, requesting for someone to leave you may not work, but it's the first step in making your intentions clear. However, that's not what I meant; there ARE ways of protecting oneself in the astral plane (protection spells, incantations, etc.). Personally though, if it really was the devil, and if he is what I think of him as, he probably would leave if I asked him to. Otherwise, then I wouldn't even "ask" him to leave, but do something else. Haha, I can't believe you're taking all this so seriously! Most of this is just opinion anyway.

 

Doesn't have to mean its one on one with me. All you said was that there was an entity. For all I know this guy is on tv making speeches each night.

Nothing wrong with enjoying a hypothetical question.

 

Look i dont believe in any of these...but think about it.


Its natural to see two sides of the the storie right?
Just think of it as maybe too many people believe in one side its all one big argument....who is good and who is bad.

For all we know god can be lucifer and lucifer can be god...just dont know....we just dont know.

 

I would just like to say that the bible says Satan is a prisioner in Hell just like all the other sinners, he is not ruler.

 

If he isn't the ruler of Hell then who is? Who else would wage the battle against Heaven in the very end. It clearly states in the book of revelations that the dragon (aka Lucifer) will lead the attack on Heaven. Also he was the leader of the rebellion and the more or less the most powerful entity next to God so obviously he should be the ruler of Hell.

The dukes of Hell take orders from him. There names are: Azazel, Belial and Beelzebub.

Finally my last point is from Paradise Lost. This is from one of the most famous lines in the book: Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

 

Who knows? Maybe there is no ruler, maybe its simply pure chaos.

Somebody else? Nobody? Union workers?

So? The Bible says a lot of things. Doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

"Now that our leader has, how shall we say, departed, I elect myself as new leader!"
"Nonsense! The Constructicons form Devestator, the most powerful of the Decepticons!"
"SOUNDWAVE SUPERIOR, CONSTRUCTICONS INFERIOR."
"Nobody would follow an uncharasmatic boore like you!"
"Hey! Nobody calls Soundwave unchrosamatic! GET 'IM!"

Belial is sometimes equated with Satan though.

Ultimately, Satan, if viewed from a traditional viewpoint, would simply be the gang leader in a prison. He's about as much a ruler as Bubba is Kingpin of the cellblock. Might have power over other prisoners but must bow before the jailkeepers.

 

im looking around in this forum at 4:20am and i finnaly find something i know about. i am a satanist,and i believe satan was framed. their are a few things i want you guys to think about....

1.if heaven was so "perfect" then why did one of Gods best angels rebel?
ANSWER:maybe satan didn't like the way the big guy was running things so he decided to stop following him as a god and as a king( also took others with him ).

2. if knowone believes in a god can that god really be a god?
ANSWER:NO!!!maybe God knew this so he cut the cancer off(satan) so he could still exist.

3.is satan a god?
ANSWER: you tell me. i think he is. i believe God gave him what he wanted( a kingdom) and threw him in the so called prison.

4.isn't heaven kinda a prison just like hell?
ANSWER:i don't see God coming from heaven just like i don't see satan coming from hell. but all people see are angels and demons. :catgirl:


so thats what i think. sorry if i went of topic or something^^if yo want to know more than pick up the satanic bible( its kinda hard to get in a book store ).

 

not quite sure who said it earlier, but i agree with the poster that said that the devil was the first non-comformist. in reality though, its really hard to get inside the mind of an idea..of a myth. how would you explain the actions of heroes and legends from stories of old? the devil is a by-product of the dualistic nature of every religion/belief system. without a devil/hell/eternal damnation, then what would be the point of abiding by the laws and teachings of your religion?

on another note, suppose that the devil is real. i'd say that he/she/it was the first non-conformist. i dont think that he rebelled to try to defeat god..because..how the hell do you beat god? i say its more of a 'leave me the **** alone' type of rebellion. perhaps the devil didn't want to be part of god's 'plan'. its said that the devil's sin was pride. pride in himself? proud of being the second most powerful being in creation? or maybe he was proud of being his own man, so to speak. proud of walking his own path. proud to NOT be predestined.

the name "lucifer" means the lightbringer.. i dont think the 'gift' of free will should be attributed to god, since it was the devil that tempted man win the fruit of wisdom. i doubt he cares much for your soul, your evil deeds, and whatnot. he just brought you light..will..an awareness of being. he gave the gift of consequence : choice.

 

In answering fluffyofthewind's first question, I think that Heaven isn't perfect, and nor is God. That's why there's room for error and evil and Satan. But of course, there are different ways of thinking what we mean by "perfect." Some can say that a being that does only the things you want it do is perfect, while others say that a being that has free will is perfect.

Yeah, second_Death, you were referring to me. I refer to Satan as the first non-conformist, cuz I remember someone telling me that all the chaos in Heaven started when Satan "questioned God's will." We see examples of people doing things their own way lots of times, like climbing over a fence rather than walking all the way around it. When people do that stuff, it's not cuz they're evil. It's just that they see (usually through logic or common sense) an alternative or better way of doing something.

And yeah, if Satan exists, I don't think he means to defeat God since God is a higher being, the highest being. Satan's just doing whatever it is he does--just chilling around. But overall I think Satan & God don't really exist. If anything, they are just abstract qualities or even "energies" that we can simply label as "the Positive" and "the Negative."

That's interesting... Lucifer meaning Lightbringer. Then what does Lucy mean?

 

not quite sure how much of the Lucifer mainstream beliefs is straight from the bible (old or new testament) or assimilated from popular works of literature (ie: paradise lost). most people just associate it too much with the fire and brimstone sermons from the bible belt and watching too much TV. some bible references point to Lucifer/samael/the devil as "king of the earth" much as god is king of heaven; or they say that lucifer is just another angel of god who does the dirty work of 'tempting' mankind. the popular belief that the devil is some sort of soul-hunting fisherman probably perpetuated in the middle ages to scare the living sh*t out of people.

and no. im not a satanist. cultist or whatever
i simply prefer to look at the big picture of things and make an opinion based on a full set of facts and different opinions. historical or otherwise

 

Hate to pull a thread necromancy, but I can't believe I missed this.

How do you know he really rebelled though? How do you know he isn't actually still on Gods side, providing temptation in order to give us the oppurtunity to build our moral "muscles"? How do you know anything about him?

Uhhh... I hate to break it to you but yes he would be. That's like saying that if nobody believes I am a human, I am magically transmuted into something else. It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what IS.

What definition of god are we working with? Depending on that he can be a god or not.

Well on the whole a retirement community is rather more pleasant than a prison... if you want to call it a prison go ahead but it's rather different...

 

Ok folks here goes

1. God is love and life. God created the angels out of said love. God created them to share His/Her joy with other beings. You know when you have some really damn good movie you just have to share it with your friends? Very oversimplfied but somethign like that. The angels, since they were in Gods very presence and could first hand experiance Gods joy all chose to follow God for in following God they accepted love and life. Satan chose to embrace the antithisis of God: hatred and destruction.

2. God has a plan for everything He/She creates. God wants us to experiance the joy that is Him/Herself since God is love and life. This plan is not some horrid control over our lives. To perfectly follow God's plan for you would make you perfectly happy. Pride, the sin of Lucifer, makes us think that OUR plans are better then God's plans. Hence misery fills the world.

3. God does not need Lucifer. Love does not need hate. Dualism is crap. Satan and all he propagates is the rejection of life with the entent of destroyinig all that is of God or all that is good. To worship Satan is to embrace everything that is anti-God or to take joy in the destruction of love and life. Conformity with God is the only way that human beings can be truely happy. We were made to serve God We are dust compared to Him/Her. Any thought contrary is pride.

4. Lucifer is a disease. All that is vile and horrid and corrupt in the world is his handy work. He is real. Satan makes us think that we are better then God. He fills us with pride, the one true sin, and makes us think that our ways are better then God's ways. Heaven is union with God, joining with Him/Her. We chose to be in heaven or hell, God does not cast us there. If we wish to be with God we can. Hell is the absence of God. Pure misery. This absence can only be obtained by compleatly rejecting God.


Side note: Don't be hating on the Nephilim. Alot of people hold that a Nephilim is some sort of evil thing when in reality (Gen 6 v. 2 I believe). They are the sons of angels who took human brides. In essence their halflings of a sort. This only happend once and God said that the two specices should not mingle (I think because their would be no place for them to exist, they cant live in heaven for the pure presence of God would destroy their human minds or live on earth because they had supernatural God like power) They were mortal and eventually destroyed with the flood.

I believe everything I have said here is Cannon, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Proof?

Proof?

Proof?

Proof? And if everything vile is his handiwork, then why is it that "God" commits mass murder and orders for more in the Old Testament? If you believe thats not meant to be taken literally or that that isn't really God, by what rationale do you start picking parts you do and do not consider "real"?

Interesting how you justify murder of nearly an entire planet.

 

The reason he posted this (correct me if I'm wrong, as I often am) is that it's the view of the Catholic Church on this particular matter. Hence his saying he was pretty sure it was Canon. I know, me saying this doesn't contribute to the debate, but I felt it necessary to post that anyway.

 

Well frankly canon scripture says A LOT of various things, many of them contradictory with others.

Though ultimately sometimes I look at it and think of the Vorlons and the Shadows from Babylon 5 and how they were both bastards.

 

How could God, the essence of all that is good be bad?

That puzzles me.

Oh and I assume you mean the term bastard in a negative context. Nothing wrong with being an illegitamate child you know...

:anime:

 

Genesis - God damns all humanity, including future humans, for the actions of 2 other people who didn't even know better. Precisely why wisdom is damning, I don't know.

Genesis - God kills nearly everything.

Genesis - God demands a man kill his only son to prove his loyalty. You may say because God stopped him from actually doing it that it is ok, but if someone held a gun to your kids head, then said "just kidding!" would you find it ok?

Exodus - God engages in terrorist activities.

Pretty much the rest of the old testament - God continues to call out for blood and kills everyone on the "holy" land of his "chosen" people. Precisely what right the Israelites had to kick people off their own land, I don't know. God also makes several insane rules.

New Testament - Doesn't seem so bad until Revelations, where he kills us all and sends most of us to hell anyway.

So Artemis, I ask you - how could an all powerful being murder, be racist and sexist, demand wars in his name, and damn anyone who doesn't stroke his ego be good?


Edit: I, of course, do not believe the bible is to be taken anywhere near literally, and I also feel that revelations is a scam for the most part. However, these are canon scriptures, and if you do not take all of them literally, precisely what does create your "filter" of what is and what isn't literal?

Secondary edit: And God is NOT the essence of good. "Good", "evil" and "morality" are seperate concepts.

 

How can you have proof for something of this sort? Is Zeus real because we have documents refering to him? The Bible was written by humans, therefore not in anyway infalliable or reliable.

I think Satan is a entity that was first introduced to balance out the idea of an all good God. Personally, I feel that God is in a sense neutral, and men make their choices on whether to do good or bad, so Satan is not needed. Satan is too often used as an excuse for not having to take respondsibility for your own crimes.