Recreation War in Iraq protest.

Have to say, I'm loving this topic.
I'm against war. Fighting without mind for the greater good does nothing but ill. Nukes can not be used for the greater good. The US should stay the **** out of Iraq and not do anything stupid(oh no, wait, Bush is the president...). The UN's weapon inspectors should go in, as Iraq should not have nukes or biological weapons. But what to do if nukes are found? The US would attack, more than likely, and that would **** everything up. So what then? I'm ****ed if I know. This world is a ****ed up shithole. As long as idiots, fanatics or evil people are in charge, we're all up **** creek without a ****ing paddle. It would be nice to believe in the greater good of the human spirit, but I just can't, as long as there are people who only care about their own personal power and gain(like Hussein and Bush{and those who consort with Bush}). So take the world and all it's sin, it's not fit for living.
Ark, your whole cause and effect theory is interesting, if a bit far fetched. Who's to say you're right, who's to say you're wrong.
MO, don't bring up the north. It's very complicated. Besides, there aren't as many killings there as you might believe. There are probably as many killings in one day in some american city, like New York or something, than there have ever been recorded in the north. But that is a very complicated issue.

 

Hey DL, that would be were I live. We are homicide city USA (as well as gang capital of the country and thats were all the killings come from).

It is interesting to note that over 90% of the military officers from all the branches of the armed forces are against military action. While I dislike military officers, they are smart enough to recognise something that could really threaten their forces. There has to be a undisclosed side to this story that tells why so many of the officials in the Pentagon are against it. I seriously doubt that they are worried about Iraq's military (even the remanent of the Republican gaurd can be taken out with just the 7th Cavalry), so there has to be some other thing that those at the top know Hussain can do to them (yet is too terrible to be disclosed to the public).

In an interview, Bush said that he would only do what he thinks is right. He also said something like "If the people do not agree with me, they will vote down whatever it is." So far, thats what is happening. I just hope that things don't go crazy like they did back in the Vietnam War with the college riots and stuff. Then we have sunken down and are no better than they are (they had a reason for that back then, the war was just stupidly fought).

 

Funny that you mentioned Vietnam. I'm not well versed on that particular topic, but i remember watching some vietnam film which emphasized on the corruption of the military which made the vietnamese (however that's spelled) distrust them even more.

To them, the vietnamese weren't people - just objectives or things with sexual value. Of course, this may only be a theory. But it makes me wonder...

It was the crusades (i.e. westerns) and the "everyone different from us is our enemy" attitude that made the islamic world turn violent against the west. Remember how the moslems took Constantinople, the west's most important capital (besides Rome) and turned it into Estambul. It wouldn't have happened without the crusades (i.e. WAR)

What do you guys suppose will happen when we westerns give the islamic countries more reasons to be angry? Yeah, I know, Hussein is a dictator, it's not the people of Irak's fault. Anyway what i mean is, there must be other way... perhaps imposing some other restrictions on Irak, etc. etc...

The world has enough problems (global warming, the gap between rich and poor countries widening etc etc) already to add another crusade.

Interesting Quote from a movie about a maniac who wants to conquer the world:

"You want to rule the world, but you forget something. There is no world anymore. There's only corporations".
Number 2, in "Austin Powers"

 

My British Liturature teacher made an interesting point on Sept 11th 2002 (I was in private school so our classes weren't canceled). He noted that we are watching history in the making and how horrible it was. But he also stated something else that got me thinking that what they did is not so evil after all, more like getting back at us.

You mentined the crusades luvweaver, you've hit on something there, but not quite what he was saying. Constantinople was the most beautiful city in the world at that time. Rome declined and had lost most of it's wonder and glory. Back during the fourth crusade, the soldiers entered that city and killed everyone, destroyed the artwork, artifacts and other prizes of the City. He went onto more detail about it, but the point is that what the Crusaders did to that city was equivallent to what the terrorists did in NY, the only difference is that the Crusaders started it off.

 

very true...not to go off topic here..but people had there classes cancelled on 9.11.?? we didnt

 

Tis true. At least over here in the city, all the public schools got the day off. All of the city and government related jobs got cancelled that day. I'm surprized that we still had class, heck, our classrooms are about half a mile from JPL, some guys were worried that something might happen over there too.

 

ohh wow..that would be scary..eeep i just remember watching it in the theater on the news

 

My 2 cents:

Saddam Hussein is evil.

Saddam Hussein is a mass murderer of his own people

1 in 6 Iraqis lives in exile

Saddam Hussein forced innocent Iraqi civilians to gaurd his palaces with thier bodies in Gulf War I so that the US wouldnt bomb them.

Saddam Hussein hates the United States and what it stands for: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Saddam Hussein's sons are worse, having learned the methods of torture and violence well from their father.

The people of Iraq are fellow human beings who deserve the right to a life without fear and suffering from a sick, twisted dictator.

Saddam Hussein is a threat to the whole free world.

The United States and all the Free countries have an obligation to their own people and the people of Iraq to eliiminate the regime of Terror AKA Saddam INC.

If war is necisary then war is necisary, we the United States will not shy from it.

Liberate Iraq!

God Bless the USA!

God Bless our armed forces durring this time of struggle.

May God guid the United States to be a power for good in the world through George Bush.

 

Hey artemis836, I'm hearing yah. All you said was true, I dare anyone to come on and discredit what he said. There may be other viewpoints, people will always say "well maybe they might do this and that." But you people gotta understand that what the authority does is for our own good, whether we, ourselves recognise it as "fair" or "just."

Think about this too before responding, that whole regoin is war. The people grew up during war, they've experienced war, live through war and are ready for war. You think that somone who is used to that will just want to sit down and settly things peacfully? NO THEY WOULDN"T! I forget exactly how this line goes, but it shows our fallacy in dealing with these types of situations. Its from the movie "Black Hawk Down", when one of the Rangers is laying down and one of the rebels is talking to him. He says something that implies the fact that we believe that if we wipe out the authority, the rest will come caving in like the way things used to be. But in todays world, people make points by killing people. The amount of dead is their way of diplomacy. I SURE AS HELL DON'T agree that this is right. But we are too civilized for our own good, we believe that diplomacy will settle everything and that the military is one big fat expense. But there's a time when talks fails and it comes down to brute force to make sure the threat does not arise again.

If there is any argument to be had, it has to be with what do we do afterwards? What government goes in there. Of course, if we set p a democracy, people will start chanting "Imperialism, expansionist" and all those crazy words. What do we do? Let some other maniac grab the throne?

 

Well, you asked for it.

I'll challenge the portion of the post that said he hates life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness. If he did, wouldn't he have killed himself by now? Liberty as well I am sure he holds pretty dear... for himself. And I'm sure he's pursuing happiness as well, he probably enjoys oppressing his citizens quite a bit.

Next nitpick: 'Evil' is a perspective. Saddam himself may think what he's doing is right. Just because we don't agree with it doesn't make it intrinsicly evil. Don't get me wrong, I do agree the Saddam needs to be deposed, by force if necessary, just pointing out that you can't use 'evil' as a reason to depose someone. *cough cough* Mr. Bush *cough cough*

Also, I don't think God is working through Bush. All other religious issues aside, I know I would feel a little dirty working through that moron. I'm sure any God would be more inclined to find a better pawn, one with more IQ

There's your dare, Phalanx Overall though, I agree with Artemis's post, something needs to be done about Iraq.

- Ark

 

god damnit the urge to edit artemis' post is.... so strong..

oh god.. someone hold me back!

 

i too agree...except for the comment about Bush...we are all screwed and done for with him in office...its sad really

 

We have few pacificist leaders nowadays...so peaceful discussions may not be used to disarm Iraq. And tbh Bush is making up loads of lame excuses to just attack Iraq

 

Well the U.S. is under the "HiGhEsT StAtE Of AlErT". I guess we'll see where all this goes huh......who knows.........

 

While I must express dissent over any use of violence to settle the Iraqi Crisi, we must understand that the US, Britain and Australia are in a do-or-die situation. There is "no turning back" for Bush, Blair or Howard. The consequential effect of softening is that other rogue nations, such as North Korea, would become impossible to control. More importantly, these countries would lose credibility and interference over important international matters that require their contribution.

While the US possesses substantial WMD capabilities, we know that its government would not use it unless it was the last resort. The fact that the Bush Admin. decided to give UN weapons inspectors a chance suggests that any US-led action would not be without the careful consideration of our welfare.

In contrast the Iraqis, under a leader whos dictatorship will perputuate for many years, has proven to be ruthless in its eradication of the Kurdish empire with BIO-NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!

More importantly, I must clarify a silly view put forth by a few posters on this forum. The belief that Bush is there for the oil is a shallow and simplistic proposition. Oil will deplete. The US are already tending to rely on solar power, hydro power or other elements of nature to replace oil. Anyway I'd rather have the US OR ANY OTHER FIRST-WORLD COUNTRY control the oil than a country whose policies are of communism-standards!

I do not wish to be unfairly labelled a warmongerer or a US-fanboy on this forum. I want to make it very clear that I am simply judging from a PRACTICAL and REALISTIC perspective; THERE IS NO TURNING BACK. What you Americans (I am not an American) should be doing is supporting your government and ensuring that your credibility and national pride is not being undermined by peace-activists or greenies in your country!

 

Part of the national pride of America is our freedom to hold our own opinions without the government telling us what to think.. To attempt to force the peace activists to feel otherwise, or to shut up and not complain, would be against that spirit of freedom.

"I may hate your views, but I would die to defend your freedom to have them", to paraphrase a somewhat famous quote.

Though I feel the peace activists are not properly assessing the situation, that does not make thier viewpoints invalid, nor does it mean they are undermining the national pride of America. It merely means they don't agree with me, and as far as I know that's not a crime (YET! ).

I had another point I wanted to make, but I'm too tired to think it through enough to put it into words. So I'll just stop writing for now

- Ark

 

I buy that. But it still doesn't justify a withdrawal from the mission
to disarm Saddam Hussein. The imminent threat that Iraq poses outweighs any consideration of Iraqi casualties. Just as the world's dismissal of Churchil's calls to remove Hitler in 1934 resulted in Germany's aggression, any attempt to ignore Bush's calls now would not only encourage Iraq to build WMD, it will also encourage misconduct in the other rogue nations.

 

I'm developing a strong hatred of america. Not all of it's people are bad, it's just one of the most ****ed up countries in the world. Everything it touches turns to ****, just look at Vietnam, Korea, Hollywood. After Sky News finishes over here, CNN is put on, and the unbelievable bullshit that was on it. The US goes to orange alert. Why? Just a hunch. The goverment is trying to keep the people in constant fear of terrorism, so they won't question the motives of this motley bunch of power mongers called "the goverment."
It went on to state that terrorists had been arrested in italy, and were suspected of being al quaida. Uh... No, they aren't. It said that all of the european goverments are set on the equivalent of the US' orange alert. Bullshit. European countries have more sense. Their people seem less easily duped. Perhaps Blair agrees, but that hardly counts as he is known to be Bush's lap dog. And I don't really see Britan going to war, if Blair tried to do that, he probably be lynched.
I'm not trying to offend Americans here, I'm just speaking with what I believe to be the truth, and not pulling my punches. I aggree that Hussein should not be in charge of a country, but for the sake of ****, neither should Bush.

 

I dont hate America, i just hate Bush.
he acts like a **** ****, ****n......
sept 11, right?
thats wat started it all, right?
well...
for every person that died in sept 11, about 30 more per person has died in iraq by the blood covered hands of America.
Its like they are treating other couyntries like ****, like they treat them like they are lower than them, like, "I get to kick u around, but if u hit back, i will bash u to a ****ing pulp. Im the only one who can deal out ****, and u gotta take it. i am strong, u r not. and if u hit back i will twist the whole worlds minds into thinking U r the enemy and not me." I mean, serously? who would wanna make peace with a country with ambitions like that?
****ing bush and his speeches. "We will fight. we are good. I sent all best wishes to the solidiers. blah blah blah."
**** u bush, y dont u go to fight with the thousands of soldier willing to die for u?
huh?
y dont u fight aswell?
see if u r so "war-hungry then.
huh?

 

i totally agree with what your saying. i think bush needs to act like the kings used to and be the first one in to battle if he's that gun ho about the whole war thing. but you know he'd get killed right off the bat leaving the rest of us screwed. theres a reason why the rest of the world hates america..its because we waste our money..and the rest of our suplies..we have polution up the yingyang...and we pretty much treat everyother contry like dirt...i like to think of it as a playground at recess...were the snobby kid/bully that nobody wants to be around cause all we do is throw around our weight as a country. and i think its probably ireplacable damage..no country will treat us with the same amount of res[ect anymore. why did america vote in bush...why???? ill never understand this election.. it baffles me compleatly. Gore got the most votes..but ohhh noo lets let bush win..yay duhhh *america picks there noses*. real smart. america has shut off all hope by electing him..we are compleatly done for. we let some one with the mental ability of a lab rat run the country and then leave us for war and devastation.