Recreation War in Iraq protest.

Hum, I can't say anything about pollution (your probably right chibichibirei). But it is somwhat necessary to throw out military weight around like whats happening right now. Look back at the first attempt after world war two, to create a "United nations" which was called the "League of Nations." It failed bacause 1) it did not have support from the US (the only world and financial power after that time) and 2) their decrees failed to do anything because they feared starting another horrific war (which led to WWII in the end). I do not support Bush, I think he has too much bravado and is trying to do too much too quickly. His wisest decision was putting Powell as Secretary of State. I trust his judgement more than anybody else. While Bush and most of the cabinet wanted to go to war right away, he is the one that held them back. Powell convinced them to go to the UN about this, to try diplomacy and everything else first. What Bush says doesn't matter to me anymore, its what Powell says.

Hey DL, I don't know what you mean by Hollywood (maybe how they portray everything in their productions). But the wars in Korea and Veitnam were just stupid (the way they were fought). Troops in korea had to go through winters in shorts, air support often supported the wrong side and the generals just irgnored the inteligence reports of the Chinese. Speaking of Vietnam, well, there is just way too much that the people in the Pentagon did to try and control the war. Take this for example, the Air Force was NOT allowed to bomb SAM sites while they were being built (out of fear of killing Soviet advisors). It was only after it came online and started shooting fighter-bombers down that the site was "OK" to attack. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE AT ALL?? If anyone thinks it does, send me a pm. But that just proves why especially Vietnam was so screwy (thank you Sec. of Defense Macnimare, you made an *** out of this country).

 

no that doesnt make any sense at all...nothing does anymore...expecially nothing to do with war...did anyone see in the news the group of woman who took off there clothes and formed the words no war on a mountian top? i think thats wondefull and its a peacfull way of doing things...and yes polution... we have so many factorys its not even funny..global warming is a big issue if we want our grandchildern and our greatgrandchildren to experience the world we all need to wake up and start taking care of the earth...thats another thing this war is going to damage ..the earth. its going to destory so much land and the air we breath..

 

No one should go to war.
It's just plain dumb.

 

that pretty much sums it up its very stupid and hurtfull

 

I agree.

But wouldn't it be "dumber" when the Hussien regime finally decides that it no longer needs to conceal its weapons of mass destruction? Wouldn't it reflect the stupidity of our alliance when Hussien wages war on us? Perhaps it'd be too late by then to even ask ourselves these questions.

While some people might not forsee the possibility of an Iraqi strike, history has demonstrated that if you "let the dragon sleep", it will bite at you someday.

Surely any learned and educated person who has studied history would remember Churchil's calls to disarm Hitler's mad German regime in 1934. 70 odd years ago we saw the ignorant preparedness of DuGalle and his colleagues to ignore Churchil's calls. In this generation we again find France and, ironically, Germany ignoring Bush's pleas. How many more world wars does it take before we learn? Or is it just that countries such as Germany are too "righteous" to shed any blood?

Is "taking the high moral ground" really so important that we can ignore the reality of this lethal crisis?

As much as I don't take pleasure in seeing U.S troops destroy innocent civilians, I don't take pleasure in knowing that one day the Iraqis may leave my body disfigured and disembled.

 

Its better to strike now with only a minimal threat than later when we have to deal with widespread death. You kill the serpent early before it grows up and kills you.

One interesting thing, Hussain is letting U2 spy planes fly over Iraq. Could this be that he's backing down?? Those things will make it impossible to hide material by driving them away from inspectors. Now we shall see the true colors of the situation over there.

 

Firstly, "this war" hasn't been initiated. There is no war at the moment. Secondly, one day when a rogue nation launches a nuclear or biochemical missle at your city, the only land and air that are going to be destroyed are that of your fatherland. Of course, you can choose the alternative option and that is to believe that Saddam is building these WMD for the sake of marvelling at them, not to use them against you or any other country.

 

i couldnt care less about my life if it means saving the land. we have trashed our earth. why??? and maybe he did build those to marvel at i can only hope..which brings me to space travel. why do we need space exploration...people have said were getting to large..our planet is to polluted.etc. so what everyones saying is that they want to trash another planet..Earth wasnt enough. someone jokingly said pluto and then we could name it Pullutedo. but thats what we do..as man kind ..we destroy everything in our path to be #1..to be the leader of the country..world. and the animals and nature have had to sit back and take it..watch themselves get kicked off. and Omnidragon i know there is no war at the moment..im not stupid nor do i live under a rock. i was just stating what would hapen if it did come to war. and that thing about "the only land and air that are going to be destroyed are that of your fatherland" ummmmm noooo. see thats not true. it may hit your homeland first ..but the smoke and debris are going to go straight up into the atmosphere and effect everysingle last human animal and plant on this planet..how do you think the dinasours died?

 

That's pretty short sighted. While you may have the right to give up your own life for a goal like that, do you have the right to sacrifice others? If Saddam is pursuing weapons and uses them, are the people he kills going to be less dead because the US took that 'moral high ground'? Does the feeling of moral superiority make up for the people who will die if that occurs?

"All that it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."

Besides, a conventional war does not damage the environment all that much. A nuclear war, or a biological war, on the other hand, causes immense environmental harm. The US does not want a nuclear war, that's why there's so much tension over this matter.

If you really care about the environment, then you should be in favor of the US attacking Iraq IF it is proven that he is after such weapons.

Also, off topic, we don't know why the dinosaurs died, there's a lot of thoeries, but not one of them has been proven.

- Ark

edit - Not that I'm trying to infer Bush is a good man.. I don't like him even a little bit.

 

im not trying to sacrafice any ones lives..i dont want anyone hurt..im just saying that war is not a good idea..i dont think thats short sighted..i dont want anyone hurt..how is that short sighted? im not trying to sound mean and i feel awfull if i do im just trying to get my point across that i dont want anyone hurt :shy3: :shy3:

 

chibichibirei. it would be nice if everyone could all get along. But wars, fights, violence and the such will always exist. People are just too diffrent. Heck, I bet if you get all the members of M2A together, there'll be someone who just doesn't like this person. Its just best to head off a threat (like Iraq) before it grows too big to be handled without massive retaliation.

 

chibichibirei, have you ever heard of a literary technique in writing called the mobilisation of biased? If you haven't then take note of the fact that you are a master of employing that technique.

You talked about space travel, pollution, how America always tries to be the #1 country, but where in your response have you addressed the contentious issues that I've exposed you to?

And while you might be prepared to die for the sake of saving your land, I am not prepared to share your stance. Besides, who's going to protect the world from those "evil bastards" when all you peaceniks have died for the earth?

 

What would you recommend? Should we just have given Kuwait to Iraq? (oh, and take Saudi Arabia and help launch another battle against Israel too while your at it [think about it, this is what he was going to do]).

I know people in the Army too, they believe in what they are doing. I know that the possible threat is too great to let it go unchallenged. Either we deal with it now dispite everyone hooting and hollering against it. Or we deal with a far more powerful foe with everyone hooting and hollering at people who kept us from taking care of the threat when it was minimal (referance WWII and Great Britian's prime minister Chamberlan's mistakes).
Another thing that amazed me too is how readily people accept defeat. In the opening days of Desert Shield/Storm, everyone thought that there were going to be lots of KIAs on the colalition's side. But guess what, there was not one combat fatality in the whole war (fraticide does not count). In Grenada, the same thing happened. Analists predicted mountains of body bags, but *surprize* we kicked ***.
I'm no war mongerer, but I look deep into military technology and the causes of as well as the history of wars. I am for the war, there is too much that has happened when people decide to look the other way and ignore a threat. To gain a full understanding of whats happening, you need to turn off the CNN (or whater NEWS you watch), tell the teacher to button up, and look into the details yourself. Since when is the media the decision maker in your life? They exist only to sway your thoughts. If they feel against something, they will display it so people will feel against it. Then those people will persuade others to join them and you have your domino effect. I'm happy that there are still people out there who cant think apart from the rest of the bandwagon. War may not be the greatist thing and if other favorable circumstances arise that make it unnecessary, then I have no reason to support it. But the way things are going, when you have to use it. USE IT DAMNIT!

Oh, hey BB. Lets not turn this into a flame thread. So far everyone seems to be doing fine trying to understand why who supports what. All you people against war, last thing we need is a war in this thread.

 

Other people probably value their lives over the environment.

I was being sarcastic. I hope nobody really thinks he did.

I don't know about that. But isn't it a bit irrelevant to your implied proposition that America still should not go to war?

My sincerest apoligies. I did not mean to offend you in any way.

If that's the case, then I don't see anything wrong with supporting the US government's stance. Frankly I don't want to be roasted under Iraqi nuclear weapons. Nor do I want to suffer under their biochemical weapons.

So the side effects outweighs the reasons to preserve our civilisation? That's a subjective stance. It goes back to my comments about your preparedness to die for nature.

One proposition was that they failed to evolve and adapt to their surroundings. I don't recall that any war had caused their extinction.

 

not a war but a volcanic eruption sending debris up in the air. much like what would happen in a nuclear war. i dont want any one hurt not americans and not anyone else just understand that im not saying anything else...i wouldnt care if they were just going to attack bin laden and then that would be it but there would be so many other lives at stake too..inocent ones

 

The problem here is that no matter how you look at it, there are innocent lives at stake. If the US does nothing, innocent lives will be lost. If the US DOES do something, innocent lives will be lost.

The question is, which way will cause less loss of life? I've been thinking over this a lot the past few days since this topic was started, and have come to the conclusion that Saddam would, given the weapons to do so, kill far more people than will be lost in an American invasion of Iraq.

- Ark

 

fine i see your point ive been thinking about it..i just think it would be better and smarter to go over there and just disarm them..only causing bin ladin harm..i dont see how hard that would be ..youd need a pretty large place to hold those weapons so i dont think it would be quite like finding a needle in a hay stack...but i guess if theres no other choice then what your saying is probably the smartest way of going about things

 

I agree with Ark about the loss of innocent lives, and I also agree with chibichibirei about the disarming. But what I want to know is, where the heck is Bin Ladin. I mean does anyone think that he's still alive......I really don't have any clue. But I guess there was a new tape submitted and its supposed to be his voice on the tape so I don't know.

I don't think that the U.S. is ever going to find him if he's still alive that is. Ya know because this guy is not stupid and he has ties with so many people.

I don't think that Iraq is telling the truth when they say that they have no ties with him. I don't know, I just feel like there's something going on between the two.

I'm out.

~Washu

 

Does Iraq have weapons of mass destruction?
That is a very serious question, the basis for everything in this thread. So far there is not conclusive evidence to show that they do. All america is doing is fearmongering so that people won't ask questions, and won't wonder whether the goverment is doing the right thing. Like I said before, they decided to go to orgage alert on a gut feeling, absolutely **** all substancial.
And as for this america being bitter against Germany and France. Is it so suprising that they'd want to avoid war? This is not a betrayal. Besides, france would probaly just surrender after a few days anyway.
So yeah, that hollywood thing. That was just an aside, a throw away joke in my post. Just commenting upon the dire state of the vast majority of films that come out of hollywood these days. Explosions and deaths every five minutes is tedius. Boo hollywood. Boo it to heck.