Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

I've already posted something like this in another thread but, I though that it would be better to start a new one about this topic, so I did.

The marionettes may be the most advanced technology that we could ever know but, as every human creation, they have a limit. I know, they mature, but how far? unlimited? Artificial things have their purpose, design, and they cannot advance unless they get upgraded. That doesn't happens with human beings, even we don't know the limits of our bodies neither our minds.

 

I think they are.

Call me an idealist, but I believe that the only difference between a maiden circuit and a human brain is the stuff they're made of.

I know that in some part of the series, the saber dolls were told they couldn't survive without a master.

But did it have to be that way? Was it a PROVEN fact? (Were there previous experiments that confirmed so? Ooooh this gets interesting)

I think that what a marionette needed to survive, was someone who would love her. BUT, in a world where there are no women, they obviously needed a human male. But it could be a marionette as well (i.e. Marine calling Lime her "master").

Now the maiden circuit, in its first stages, could be more "fragile". Perhaps its construction allowed the bearer to accidentally destroy it in a very painful situation. BUT...

If we remember what happened to Tiger in SMJ chapter 20 (or was it 19?), was that her maiden circuit wasn't completely destroyed. Instead, she was in some "temporal insanity" situation. There have been real cases where people have practically gone nuts and completely ignore this world in favor of their own mental fabrications.

So, is the maiden circuit like the human mind? I think yes.

Is the maiden circuit real? Of course not, but who cares! (This reminds me of Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) debating about the janitorial staff on the Death Star. Anyway )

 

If Something was created by humans, that doesn't necesarly means that it will stay under his control. The more complex the machine, more probabilities of error or strange processes. And in this story the marionettes evolve and in the end they do something that his master didn't want they them to do, no matter than that would probably mean their death. (Saber J).

And in J to X, in the Xi'an part, Otaru believes in the marionettes' free will. It's the main theme of this story, or isn't it?. Ah, no, the main theme is love .

If someone creates a system able of self learning and evolution, perhaps the creators knows how it could start, but it's quite improbable to know where it could end.

There's a theorem, Gödel's Incompleteness one, that proves that no mathematical theory can explain everything. And this can lead to an explanation that true AI will not be ever possible. At the 19th century the same was said about men flying in the air. and in this century theory said that trains would never go faster than 250-300 km/h. Luckily the marionettes' story is only science fiction and a great story as well. One can only hope and wait

 

Well, jedimdo posted something like this in my story thread, and I responded in part there. So, I will copy it over to here and complete my thoughts. As a warning, though, this post will reveal some things about J to X, so you may not wish to read it.

I do agree with what jedimdo said in that they are dependent on another. But! Only at first. By the time J to X had entered it's final phases (no pun intended), the girls were quite independent. Albeit when they had lost their memory, they could not remember who their love was with, they seemed to manage quite well. By the end, their hearts had developed to the same level as those of humans. Luchs said so. Let's remember Lime's last words in Phase 25:

Spoiler: SMJ to X Phase 25

"What I wanted was not a human body, but a human soul that I can feel. We can find that without you, Dr. Hess." (or similar, it's been too long since I saw it happen. (<1 month))

And her final words before the nuclear extinction device detonated:

"Otaru, maybe I've finally become human."

I think there's no maybe about it. I think the girls had become human in every way except the physical, and that was achieved (in some way) shortly after.

So, jedimdo, it seems we're destined to disagree. We don't agree on this issue, and we can't agree that the other has the real Cherry by his side.

But here's a little helper for my side on that arguement.

Konban wa, minna-san! Watakushi Cherii tomoshimasu. Shinryu-sama wa daisuki desu.


Translated, she said: Good evening, everyone. I am Cherry. I love Shinryu-sama.

Aww, thanks, Cherry.

 

And the more complex the machine, the errors may be more fatal. If we trust the strange processes to 'evolve' a machine, it'd take at least a million of years to create an advanced version of the original. We are like biological machines and, as humans, we've been evolving since the last 2 million years. That's a lot of time, maybe the marionettes skipped a lot of time in evolution, ok, but, as I've seen in the series, there's still a long of work to do.

If you're still interested in the evolution of machines, here's an interestig link about it: http://www.genobyte.com/robokoneko.html

Are you sure about it Shinryu? S-Cherry could be programmed to say things like that, because my Cherry asked me to bring you this message to you, hoping to prove that she's the real one:
ohayougozaimasu minna-san.
watakushihacheriide,jedimdosamanoaisaidearu.
watashitachinoshukumeihaeientomoikiteimasu.
jedimdosamadaisuki.
Cherii

Translated is:
good morning everyone.
I'm Cherry and jedimdo-sama's wife.
Our destiny is to be together eternaly.
I love you jedimdo-sama
Cherry.
Aw, Cherry

 

What makes you so sure that your Cherry is the real one?

Here's my proof. Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu himself entrusted Cherry to me. He said that if anyone could be trusted with her, it was me. The two of us will be together forever.

Sonotori desu wa. Shinryu-sama wa watakushi no shini ai de aru.


Translation: That's right. Shinryu-sama is my true love.

Nothing makes me happier than hearing my beloved say that. My day is officially a good one.

From now on, we will post the translations of her messages, instead of translating them afterwards, unless neither of us feel like it.

 

Stop it! :-/

OK guys, enough of Cherry fighting. Let's stick to the topic.
While I agree with maiden circuits being made by humans (there's a saying that states nothing can be greater than its creator), I tend to favor the "sci-fi" touch and say that the girls ARE human.

Yes, there can be no other "excuse" for this... but i can't accept that they are anything less than human.

OK, let's suppose that the maiden circuit was a nearly perfect replicate of the human brain. I know this isn't physically realizable (true AI), but hey... that's the best we got.

So, I vote "yes, they're human"

 

Yes, let's. je...Jed...jedi... (do I capitalize this or not? ) Jedimdo and I agreed to keep it to private messages, but, it apparently spilled over. Anyway, I've realized the childishness of it.

Jedimdo, continue to believe you have the true Cherry if you wish, I know that no matter what I say, I will not be able to convince you. I know that my Cherry is the real one, that's enough for me. For what reason would I have to prove it? It doesn't matter whether you think the Cherry with you is the real one or if you think Cherry with me is. It won't change anything, either way, so why argue about it?

I realize that that probably should have been in a PM, but I wanted to make sure that others saw my side a little better. Or something, I don't know.

 

Human? or not human? That's the question.
What's a human being anyway? Is a conciousness state? Can be E.T. a human? A machine? The marionettes are ALIVE, I'm not questioning it, but, are they human? I don't think so. They are people, yes. If were so strict that I wanted super-extra-mega-realism, I'd never watched SMJ. One of the things that I love most from the series is that they're open stories, you can imagine infinite ends.

Oops, time's up. Seeya

 

But is this saying really accurate?

 

Obviously not. Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry, (Cherry especially) have surpassed everyone, and in my mind are the greatest people in existence. Seeing as they are the greatest, that means that they must have surpassed their creator, thus proving luvweaver's statement wrong.

Of course, you could take this in a different way, that in saying nothing can surpass what created it, that with each passing generation, every species weakens, as the offspring cannot surpass their parents. Survival of the fittest couldn't work, as species could not evolve, because the children, again, cannot surpass their parents. Although, this is a rather unrealistic approach.

But there have been many situations in anime, books, movies, television, and indeed, real life, where creations have surpassed their creators. Sooner or later I'll provide an example. (But a cookie goes to anyone who does for me )

[EDIT] My 500th post! Although only 454 of them count...[/EDIT]

 

Hmmm..., doing the same logic: Cherry told me that I'm the most handsome man on the Earth, therefore I'm beyond the creation. I think you know it, you haven't proved anything here.

Do we really create our children? The evolution is beyond our power of control. We can't go ahead of it.

I'd like to see them.
Sorry for my few words. I just don't have time now.

Something else, please check this project: jedimdo.tripod.com.co/cherii/index.html

 

If everyone on Earth found me to be more attractive than my parents, I would definitely say I surpass them in attractiveness.

Yes. 1 sperm + 1 egg = lovin' in the oven.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

Lt. Data surpasses his creator

Frankenstein's Monster surpassed Dr. Frankenstein...


If you want to get into offspring and children...

Itachi Uchiha (Naruto) surpassed his family

Sabriel (Sabriel, Lirael, Abhorsen) surpassed her father

Drizzt Do'Urden (A myriad of stuff) surpassed all of his family, many times over.

Rand al'Thor, Egwene al'Vere, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon (The Wheel Of Time series) all surpassed their families.

 

I think you didn't get the meaning of that.

We *participate* in the creation of our children, but we are not their CREATORS. Because we simply pass some genetic information to them. OUR information. And where did we get this information? From our parents, grandparents, etc etc etc.

If you want to view it as in Object Oriented Programming, there's this Class named "human". And we're instances of this class. Two instances recombine their "genes" properties, giving birth to a new "child" instance, whose property "genes" was obtained from its ancestors.

So, in other words, we do not create our children (at least genetically), but merely pass our genetic properties to them.

CREATING someone would be designing his/her genetic code, creating the cell, and nourishing it either naturally or artificially. Then we face an ethical problem with genetics. Is it right to "play God" by creating artificial human beings? (Shameless plug: We explore this possibility in my SMJ fanfic "Saber Marionette 90210!" )

Returning to the subject of Marionettes, it is obvious that Lorelei CREATED the maiden circuits. Still, we'd have to see if she merely made an exact replica of the human brain (namely hers), with exactly the same thought processes. If this is the case, then the marionettes weren't inferior creations, but actually "thought clones" of Lorelei. Or actually, thought "daughters", since they weren't perfect replicas, but rather partial copies, with each having a part of her personality.

With Otaru's emotional nourishing, effectively the marionettes evolved and their thought processes became independent. So, in a way, the marionettes are actually the children of Otaru and Lorelei.

With this, my thesis is proven. Q.E.D.

(I've ALWAYS wanted to say that! )

 

With this, my thesis is proven.

 

So because we didn't create steel, we don't create steel boxes?

Handled automatically. And if you subscribe to abiogenesis (obviously you do not; I on the other hand do), there was no creator who designed it all, so... yeah.

Created with the unification of sperm and egg, which are generated by our bodies.

Pregnancy.

Why isn't it?

 

You didn't get it Nephilim_X. We do create steel boxes. Not the material they're made of, just the meaning, the structure, etc. of them. Could you take some organic material and make a human? We must participate actively in the making (AND creative) process in order to call ourselves creators.

In the marionette's creation humans use the material that Terra II provides them, while the next REAL human generation is made from the equation: children = egg + sperm + c, c belongs to a third party or c=0.
Tell me, if any male can't control his sperm production, is he really creating it? is it his desire?

I almost agree completely with luvweaver, but I'm asking the same: Why isn't it? Altough I was born catholic as almost all latinamericans, I don't get why some ppl is so paranoic with this.

Maybe it's in spanglish or something else. Here i go again: The evolution is ahead of us, we aren't part of the staff, we're just extras.

 

Well, yes. Think of when you eat. You end up taking what you need out of the food and disposing the rest. Your newly acquired raw materials are used to create or maintain things, and that includes the creation of sperm and egg cells.

Well, we do. Are we tweaking every aspect of kids yet? No, but could people tweak every aspect of things in the past? No.

Well, yes. Men can get vasectamies or not have sex/donate sperm. Seems pretty obvious to me...

I have NO idea what you're talking about but I'll take a guess. Do you mean how evolution is a process on its own?...

In that case, we ARE all staff because we survive and reproduce and due to the way our society is, we let pretty much everything exist in the genepool, hence unwittingly impeding the evolution of man.