Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

First off, I watch the Japanese dub, so there may be differences. Maybe... Check the English subtitles?

And that is proof enough for me. I believe that she is alive.

When taken literally, yes. When taken in a more figurative sense, no, it's quite possible.

For example, Adolf Hitler. Human? Or Monster?
Josef Stalin. Human? or Monster?

Just because you were born human doesn't mean you cannot lose your humanity. Seriously, can you honestly say that Adolf Hitler was human? He was flesh and blood, but he was not human.

The opposite is true of the girls. They are not flesh and blood, but they are human. It's difficult to explain, and my time is short. In the end, I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I believe they're alive. If you don't, then so be it. It makes no difference, and I can see I'm not going to change your mind.

 

C'mon, they were human. Then Faust and the saberdolls aren't human?
Anyway who have the authority to give or take away 'humanity condition'? Nobody.
However, history is always written by the winners.

 

Many, if not all, of these things already are in the DNA. At the begining we are a cell with a lot of information to make a human. Some may not agree with the soul, I understand but, anyway to create a soul is out of our control.

About the human condition: I try to think in an objetive or absolute true, but that doesn't exist. The closest way is to try to be impartial, everybody is right, as Shinryu knows he's right and I know I'm right. What would we say if nazism had won? What tells that about us? Would we be right if we thought in the other way? That's why I can't deny their human condition.

Marionettes: Humans or not Humans? I suggest to read this fanfics:
Koyuki’s Red Pinwheel by David Pascal
I Love You, I love You Not by BakaMattSu (Good job )

 

Unless the name describes the FUNCTION.

Speaking about fanfics, try reading "Strangers in a strange land" by Pat Olsen - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1449/ssl.html

There Ranma and some friends wake up as marionettes. So this brings an interesting topic - what makes you human - the body, or the mind and heart?

I remembered something when watching this thread's poll.
"I'm a marionette, therefore, I cannot vote on this poll".

Maybe if you remember one of the chapters of Saber Marionette JtoX, where Lime wants to pray but some monk tells her she can't pray because she's a marionette?

And she doesn't understand why she can't. Because she KNOWS how to pray. That, in some terms, is a proof that she has a SOUL.

And that would make them human.

 

I'm going to nitpick here. In that episode, according to the subs, Lime was praying, and the monk said it was odd to see a marionette praying to Buddha.

Anyway, I believe it is a matter of opinion, and definition. I believe that being human is more than simply being flesh and blood, and born as a member of the species. Jedimdo clearly does not believe this. Thus, it is impossible to convince him of my point of view, as he does not hold the same definition of humanity as I. The only way for him to accept my point of view is to accept my definition, an action I do not think he will take.

 

A nub with a few words. (Pt. 1)

Okies, I'm a nub here to this forum (this is my first post), so I'll try to post something intelligent. I write fanfiction too, so I can be a little wordy, so please forgive me if my ramblings turn into mindless drivel. >> I also have to break this up into two separate posts cuz im so long winded. My apologies. ^^;

oo; I'm also trying to figure out how to use the quote box thingy... so forgive me if I muck that up as well.


Lesse, the core of this discussion has shifted over to, what appears to be, "Are the marionettes human or not". If the marionettes are human then of course they are totally independent beings- that's what humans are, right?

Everyone here seems to have a different view on 'what is human' so I decided to look it up. The 'official' definition should set a standard that we can follow.

I went to our good man Webster and typed in Human Being. It linked me to Human which read:

"1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of humans
2 : consisting of humans
3 a : having human form or attributes
b : susceptible to or representative of the sympathies and frailties of human nature"

So, to the question of whether or not they are human, I would say 'Yes'.

But then again relying on Webster to answer such a heavy handed question is weak, so let me delve deeper here.

The question becomes is 'what is human'. If we know what a human is then we know who or what CAN be one, therefore we know if our favorite protagonists ARE human. (Anyone else catch that?)

Well, What is Human?

We know what Webster thinks, but he’s a mindless book and not all people would agree with him. Earlier it was brought up that Humans cannot 'create' other humans.

So we pass on our genes. Ok, I'll buy that. But what about Humans that are created via recombined genetics? If we break down the bases in our DNA we can use them to reconstruct whole new DNA strands. It’s like Lego’s, man. If you tear down your Aquanaut base you can use the same pieces to build an Aquanaut submarine. Is a child born from that kind of ‘building block’ genetics, one with no mother or father, any less of a human than one with one? Is that child born an 'object' since it was created by man?

The answer isn’t just ‘no’, it’s hell no. That is still a human being. It still grows and learns. It can still cast its own dreams and live its own life. It can still love and BE loved. Anyone care to argue this point? Ok, what about Otaru? What about Hanagata? Old man Gennai? They were all born due to genetics, this very same method. They were 'created' with out a mother or a true father. We still consider them to be human too, right?

So, human beings CAN create another human being, and that creation is still human. Well what if we change around the building blocks? Rather than DNA lets use silicon. Rather than bones lets use stainless steel. Let's give it a heart that can feel and interpret human emotion, one that can learn and evolve. Let's give it its own personality with its own likes and dislikes. It's no longer an 'it' but a 'Him' or (in this case) a 'Her'. Are we to say that she's different than the first child (born of recombined genetics), that she's different from Otaru himself, because of the building blocks we used? Are not both cardboard boxes and steel boxes still both boxes? Are not plastic cups and china cups still cups? Despite the difference in their material they are still considered to be the same.

SO, are not female androids with hearts, who feel the same emotions we do, shed the same tears we do, love, give, and place their own lives on the line, just like a human would, not human as well?

Ah, but some people will argue that till the end of time, so let's go in another direction with this thread (I'm not done boring you yet.).

Let's talk about the core of this argument- Their maiden circuits. It's been argued that they aren't the same as human hearts. That as wonderful as they are they are 'inferior', and that is what limits them from being human.

Think about what they were designed to do. Let’s go back to the roots of the series here. They were designed to replace Lorelei, right? (Omg I hope this isn't a revelation to anyone who hasn't seen SMJ all the way through yet) Mesopotamia wanted to have Lorelei because it 'fell in love' with her. It would accept nothing less, save a mechanical, eternal version of her.

They were designed to replace her 'human' heart and soul. Mesopotamia would accept nothing less, right?

So tell me fair nay-sayers, how can something 'imperfect' come together to create something 'perfect'. You have to have real human hearts to create and become a real human heart.

"Oh, but It's like a puzzle." Someone might say. "Individual pieces are imperfect but when you bring them all together you have a full picture."

True, but the picture in a puzzle is imperfect. You can still see the cuts and creases where the pieces came together. The real Mona Lisa doesn't have those puzzle piece edges, does she? Heck, we can even use a print out of the real Mona Lisa as the standard. If she were considered the 'perfect model' for a Mona Lisa puzzle, the puzzle itself would be much, much inferior.

SO, in order to create the perfect human heart, the maiden circuits must have been perfect in themselves. If they were perfect human hearts, only in mechanical form, then they HAD to have been human, therefore they HAD to have their own will AND can act independently. Mesopotamia would have no less.

In fiction, humans CAN create perfection. Dante hit the nail right on the head when he mentioned Frankenstein. "You may be the Creator, but I am the Master." or something to that effect. Even if you want to argue that point, who's to say that a human heart is 'perfect' anyway? We're human BECAUSE of our imperfections. Of course something imperfect can create imperfection.

 

A nub with a few words. (Pt. 2)

Alright, Part 2.

The creators of the series even gave us subtle hints about their humanity, AND their ability to act independently. Lets go back to their roots, in SMJ eps nine. (Ok, starting to feel like a Trekkie here rattling off episodes and vague instances…) Tiger attacks Bloodberry, and clips our favorite combat marionette across the cheek before hitting the wall behind her. A cut on Bloodberry's cheek and a drop of blood is followed by Bloodberry's comment "Were you aiming for the wall?"

Hey wait a sec, robots can't bleed. Humans do. Sure maybe the creator just slipped up and I'm looking waaaaay too deeply into it, but it's more fun this way.

How about their ability to act independently? Once more, tapping the roots of the series (going back to SMJ) we find more than one instance when they DO DISOBEY their master's orders and act of their own free will (albeit it's to please their master or for his safety).

How can ANYONE dispute that kind of self sacrifice

They are independent beings because their actions have proven they have independent thought. They weren't 'programmed' to protect their master at all costs, just like Panta wasn't 'programmed' to go against Faust's word only when doing so might please him. They made those choices on their own. Their emotions guided them.

Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

YES, without a doubt they are.

Are they human?

Yes, of course they are.

I feel it is disputable and my reasons are above. However the tying factor of all of this is that last question there- "Is being a human a Prerequisite for independence?"

I'll field that question.

The answer, obviously, is no. Have you ever seen a dog or a cat? How can you tell me a cat is not independent? Spiders and insects are independent. How dependent is a Black Widow spider? She eats her mate!

The fact of the matter is they show independence and are distinctly non-human.

Machinery is the same way. If you program that welding arm that spot welds the chassis on a car, it will act independent of anyone, doing its job swiftly and independently of an operator. However the human must still create it, or 'give birth to its creation' and they must still 'teach it' how to do its job, just like we do our own children.

Holy man, that was long winded. If you're still reading this, horray~! I think I'm done now. Sorry for all the wordage.

 

Yay! Welcome!

Welcome um... (searchs name. wertitis? WT* is that? O.O blink blink - oh man why didn't you just use your AIM handle. anyway)

Welcome to boards.jp! (Or in this case due to your xtra-long posts, boreds.jp? lol j/k. Well, at least i know your posts are as long as your fics, lol! )

Anyway. Besides the friendly and sarcastic-big-slap-in-the-back "welcome back" gesture , i'd like to address that last point you mentioned.

What did the question refer to "being independent"?

Did it mean that marionettes' emotions were easily predictable, and that they would get destroyed if they lived without a master? Well, I don't think so (some chapters in JtoX can prove it, as Lime was in the hospital, etc).

However, there's some question. What would be the "loneliness" quantity required for a maiden circuit to break? Can it be measured? What will happen to it? Will it behave like the human brain like when we "snap"? Or just stop functioning at all? (shameless plug: I explore this on my 3rd fic, "second chance")

Or maybe it's that the maiden circuits were similar to some animals (i.e. lovebirds if i remember right) that can die of loneliness? Or maybe it's that they are given the means to disconnect from the outside world forever, therefore "dying"? (As in SMJ chapter 20, the koyuki chapter)

What would happen to them? Would they effectively die?

There's also some question i'd like to ask.
*WHERE* did the people in Terra II know that marionettes with maiden circuits NEEDED a master? Was there maybe some failed experiment? (That would bring the question as if Leopard's circuit was a maiden circuit, and where it came from)

Ooohhh more ideas for fics!

Oh. And in case you wonder how to do the "censor" squares, it's using the "SPOILER" tag. (SPOILER=SUBJECT)spoiler here(/SPOILER). Replace the parenthesis with square brackets and you're done.

Enjoy your stay, and welcome to the boards.jp community! :anime:

 

Wow, that was too much. Anyway welcome to boards.jp

I do. I believe that we're not just flesh and blood but, I just don't like to go too away.

There's not 'official' definition even within dictionaries. Thinking about it, it seems like humanoid definition to me. Check dictionary.com , there's a very diferent definition.

Whoa, let's pause, Which are those human created via recombined genetics? And they're still mixes, they're copies from the originals, they aren't something new. Therefore every citizen on Terra II is human. Marionettes aren't our direct descendants, they don't have our DNA.

About Lorelei and the Mesopotamia. How much could feel the Mesopotamia from Lorelei? Did it felt all her human scence? The maiden circuits needn't be that perfect.

 

Mein Gott in Himmel!.

That sounded like a demonstration of a theorem!

Lime says it in Chapter 25 of J to X (Hikaru)

Spoiler: subject

Otaru, now I'm understand what means to be a human being

I've started to like this series when I watched load 20 of SMJ. This is the kind of story I like, not matter that they're not made of flesh and blood, or being like terminators T-1000, they behave as women.

 

You know that we're just mixes of DNA too, right?

So if I got a mechanical body I would cease to be human? You say that there's more to being human than flesh and blood, but then seem to suddenly flip over to the flesh and blood being a necessary requirement. Is a kid with no legs only half a human?

 

Of course I know. As I can understand, recombined genetics is to mix DNA from different species. This is not very common in the north hemisphere but, what becames from the mix of a donkey and a horse? a mule, it's not either a donkey or a horse. In our side, we are the same specie.

Flesh and blood is a way to say (This have sense in spanish, I don't know if I've translated well), live's biological definition is to be able to procreate by itself, to interact with the enviroment and, I don't remember now. You woulnd't be alive because of the first condition.
(Ok, some may say: what about males in Terra II? Obviously they're humans. They still have the ability to procreate. The only thing is that they should do a long (100.000 lightyears?) trip to meet a woman.)
The kid is human. His legs are just accesories. We are not perfect and each human body is not equal to the other.

Let's focus. Is a marionette's body alive? I think that all would agree with this. Look at Lime when

Spoiler: Saber Marionette J

Obiichi takes her Maiden Circuit. Is Lime there? or she's in the bag?

 

If someone took my brain, would I be here, or in the bag?

 

in the bag. Hmmm...

If someone took my brain, i'd be dead

(Hess-talk: Obviously marionettes have some very "interesting" properties. *evil chuckle*)

But since my memories, personality, and well, my ability to "think therefore I am", and if somehow, my brain was kept in a jar or implanted somewhere else, *shivers*, well, you get the idea.

It's the maiden circuit that makes 'em kick (and there goes Hannie!)

 

Well, the Dark Phoenix (wertitis) said just about everything I wanted to say but couldn't find the words for, so... I'm left with nothing but what would make me sound like I were parroting.

Jedimdo, I'm not quite sure where you stand on this issue anymore. Methinks clarification is in order. I also wonder how you can blindly cling to your viewpoint after such an extensive, well-reasoned, well-backed up arguement against it. Are you that hateful of marionettes that even after overwhelming evidence that those with maiden circuits are human/alive that you still refuse to believe it?

I guess, since my words were taken out of my mouth, er... keyboard, I'll try to sum up who is on what side of this arguement.

Marionettes are:

Not alive:
Jedimdo

Alive:
Shinryu
Wertitis (Dark Phoenix)
BakaMattSu
Nephilim_X
Luvweaver
Kapitanbar
Dante

Hmm... This may or may not be right. 7 against one... Something's wrong with this picture.

 

Wow, that's a little harsh. Is this the same Jedimdo that is as hopelessly fallen for Cherry as you are?

The issue here isn't about marionettes. We call can agree marionettes aren't human. They are simply machines (androids) that mindlessly do as they are told. There is no independent thought.

A Maiden Curcuit, however, is something totally different. That's what our issue is.

Then again there are those who would argue against that statement... the name Koyuki would be brought up... ect...

The whole point of that was to prove that man can indeed 'create' another human. You pointed out that Otaru is a clone and a mix of the original six (with a very strong resemblance to the young Ieyasu...). True, however these men are cloning by recombining thier collected DNA. They're making 'more people' by breaking down the bases in ther DNA and reconstructing them- They're tearing apart their lego bases so they can use the peices to build something else. It's all science and it's not 'natural'. To natrually create another human you need a man and a woman. What the original six are doing is artificial.

The whole point of that argument was that if man can 'create' another human using nothing more than "nucleic acids" (DNA), why cant he create another human being using different materials? If we're already creating humans with one artificial method, who's to say we can't create them using another? That's what I was trying to get across, sorry if I confused ya.



I gotta say I stand by you standing up for yourself, goin' agaisnt the flow and all. If everyone agreed with everything, where would be the fun in arguing?

 

Ok, I started this thread to 'hear'(read) other's opinion. My objective is not to change someone's mind or viceversa. After reading all this thread's posts, I'm almost sure what do I think, and I thank all of you for posting in this thread.

1. The Marionettes aren't human. After seeing SMJ2X I'm sure now. Lorelei and Akahori Satoru even agree with me.

Spoiler: Saber Marionette J to X (Phase 04)

While Otaru and his marionettes are in castle Japaness watching the celebration, the saber dolls arrive dressed with their Gartland uniforms. While chatting, Lorelei says: Nosotros los humanos tambien necesitamos crecer, We, humans, also need to grow

The key word is tambien/also(or too), excluding them from being humans.
What's wrong with that? They're different to us, they're unique and that's amazing.

2. Alive?. I really shouldn't said that they aren't alive, not because I'm wrong, because I'm not sure about it. To really know this we should ask Lorelei and the marionettes but that's quite impossible. The truth is that I can't say this so sure as you. They may be alive and that would be greater, but I couldn't see anything that gave me any proof.

That was a very well presented evidence. Sometimes it almost conviced me but it's too emotive. I'm not blind. I already confirmed their nonhuman condition and I regret from denying their nonalive condition, although I'm not supporting it.

Yes, I am. Why do I need to believe the same as you? Can't I love her because of my believings?

This is turning into a Antropology thread . You were saying that males in Terra II were still humans because of the DNA. You're right! I agree with you. But how can you link it suddenly with marionettes? Your proof was DNA, and then you're talking about 'other materials'. 2 is not equal to 3.

 

Wait a minute. You've got J to X with a spanish dub? I didn't know one existed. Anyway, as I said, I've seen the official Bandai release with the Japanese dub and English subtitles, so what is said may differ somewhat. I can't remember that exact scene, although I remember her saying something similar to that at one point. When I rewatch that episode, I'll let you know what the difference is.

Yes, they are different. In some ways. I never said they were exactly the same. I said they are human in every way except the most physical, the least significant. The only thing making them nonhuman is the materials they are made of. Personally, I view that as being unimportant. It's similar to racism, really. Is someone with black skin not human? Is a native american not human? Of course they are. They're just as human as you or I. So it is with the girls. Are they not human because they are not made with flesh and blood? (yes, I have said this before) Does the fact that they were built as machines make them not human?

Of course not. Even if nothing else, the Otome Kairo made them human. As human as you, myself, or anyone else on our planet. It is the emotional, the metaphysical that matters to me, not the physical.

Again, there may be translation differences that alter what you have seen, making your SMJ experience different from mine, but...

Let's take apart this paragraph and respond bit by bit. I apologize if this sounds bitter or anything.

Yet, you were sure enough before to say that they were not? Have our arguements changed your outlook, or were you mistaken before?

And you claim that Cherry is there with you. If she were, you could ask her yourself, thus rendering your statement untrue. So, you were either lying about Cherry being with you, or you're lying about not being able to ask. One way or another, you're trapped. :heh:

What keeps you from being sure? What proof should you need? I would be happy to provide any insight I can. As I have said, I wish only for you to see my viewpoint. Whether you adopt it or not is entirely up to you, but I want you to at least see it.

I apologize for what I said there. I was frustrated that you could not see my point of view, and that all of my efforts seemed in vain to making you see. I'm glad that you don't support the "They aren't alive" side, but I wish I could make you see things the way I do.

I did say some things I regret. I did not mean that you have to believe what I believe, I only wish for you to see as I see. I never meant to dispute your feelings for Cherry, only your opinion of her state of being. I love Cherry, as do you, but it seems to me that I am more accepting of her as she is.

I wonder, what is your response to the question asked of Otaru? This question is not transcribed exactly as quoted, but rather, rewritten to convey meaning.

Spoiler: SMJ to X, Final Phases

If Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry could have human bodies, would you wish for it?

I'm going to let the Dark Phoenix handle this, as he brought the idea up, and I need time to formulate a response to it.

[EDIT] Total time spent typing this: >30 minutes. The boards logged me out, thinking I had left![/EDIT]