Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

I guess you mean to raise them, If it is, then I agree with you. When they grow up and leave home, they're partially the result of their parents intervention. I'm saying partially because there are many other factors. But what I was talking about is ¿how do they become human? ¿when they start to be human? That's where the parents barely get involved.

That's true, but it is not what I said. Men who do this are just blocking the natural process. They still are producing it, they can't stop it's production as they could stop walking for example.

That's a good point. But, acording to Darwin's theory, we're turning apart to the evolution laws. We almost all survive, the strongest, the weakest, smartest, etc.. And, right, it's impeding man evolution due to the genes (good and bad ones) that stay in the genepool.

 

...They're always human. Isn't that obvious?

Thats when they're independant people, that's all. If you're using this as an argument, you could say that God didnt create us, he only made the base template, its we who create us.

You don't need total control over something to have created it. If it's an automatic process, you still made it, you just didn't have much say in the matter.

Survival of the fittest. Um, well, take a look. Most people in developed countries live long, but in less advanced nations lots of people don't make it. Mans evolutionary advantages are his social structure and tool using ability. We're still evolving, it's just that the gene pool is MUCH more open now.

And that goes to show how potent our tool using capability and social structure is. Weaknesses are compensated.

Ok, stop. You just mentioned bad genes. Anyone who actually understands evolutionary theory knows there isn't really bad or good genes, just genes. Our evolution PHYSICALLY is however impeded because there is no need for our physical forms to adapt, since we make the environment adapt to us.

 

Whoa, this went off topic! What happened to the talk about whether the Marionettes were really independent?

Anyway, after seeing Saber Marionette R for the first time, I can tell you that, although our Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry are certainly independent, as I said in my first post here, Lime-R, Cherry-R, and Bloodberry-R are much less so.

Lime-R is totally dependent on Junior, like a young child. (Which she is)

Cherry-R is dedicated to Junior, and, although less dependent on him than Lime-R, still isn't very independent.

Bloodberry-R is the most independent. She makes a decision at the end of the second episode that goes completely against Junior's wishes, much like how the girls we know do in the earlier episodes of J to X.

The "Sexadolls" are totally dependent on their Master Face. As Kyanny (Luchs) said, "Face-sama's wishes are my wishes. If he disposed of me and took over the world, it's alright."

 

You're totally right. Soudesune.

Bad words choice I guess. Although I UNDERSTAND evolutionary theory, I still think different when we're talking about human evolution. There's a path (within evolution's multiple ones), where we should be going but we aren't. It seems that the only way to continue is to create trans-humans, genetic modified humans.

Returning to the topic, I just watched SMJ2X Ep. 25 Again^3... and everybody (including Cherry, Lime, Otaru, etc.) still look at the marionettes as marionettes, not more. Although Lime says that doesn't matter that she has a human body, because she has a human heart, that's not enough to classify them as human. They have the same circuit design that the saber dolls and they trend to behave as them too. I'd never denyed it, the marionettes are very independent. They could do many things without their master's commands, but, if he asks them to, they'd do anything, ANYTHING.

As I can read, that's not enough for me. They should be more independent than their previous versions. But, I still haven't seen SMR so please use SPOILERS tags if the post is revealing too much.

 

What? What are you talking about? There's no "path" in evolution; no final destination to end up at. There's no direction you "should" go other than that which allows you to survive or doesn't negatively impact your ability to survive.

 

Alright, I'll try not to go into it much more. I understand where you're coming from with the more independent thing. This isn't much of a spoiler so... Lime-R, Cherry-R, and Bloodberry-R are not the same marionettes that we all know. They are different marionettes with different experiences, thoughts, and appearances. The only thing remaining the same is their core personality and their voices.

 

Hmmm who's really independent, anyway?

Is it like the marionettes are *physically* dependant on having a master, or is it more like they'd die from loneliness?

It's not the same thing. We all need someone to love us...

Just a thought.

 

Not once you get past the initial growth stages. I know some people who are quite content to be single, and it's not due to any bitterness or something. I quote "It's more efficient".

 

BTW, aren't this marionettes produced in mass? If they are, they should have the Asimov's laws integrated to their systems. Their owners and neighbors need to be sure that this marionettes won't hurt them. Unless, they're unique models, but as I could read they aren't.

 

Hmm, that doesn't makes them unique in SMR, because anyone (with enough money) could buy a marionette with a maiden circuit. They'd need something more than a MC to be unique but I can't figure it.

And returning to SMJ2X, near the end of the serie, Lime says that she can't understand humans because she wasn't made of meat and bones, she couldn't feel the pain that humans feel when they get sick for example.

Marionettes (with MCs) are amazing beings. Based on my experience with one of them , I can say that there's still a long work to do.

 

Not me. I'm just commenting on the previous posts.

Yes, the Otome Kairo does make a marionette unique. It gives them souls, nd personalities. As I said, it makes them (almost) human. All humans are unique.

As a pointless reference, Dot Matrix (Reboot) once sung "There's no one like you, you're alphanumeric." I can't remember the whole song, but that line is helpful enough to prove no real point.

 

This post is divided in three main topics:

SMR: Of course that having a Maiden Circuit makes a marionette unique, but after they're awaken. I mean, the interaction with the enviroment, it's owner's care and their experience make them 'mature'. In that way each marionette, although it may belong to a serie, would be really unique.

Humans: While exploring the internet I could find many fanfics and reviews naming/calling(Spanglish) the marionettes humans, even WOMEN. They're machines, aren't they? They don't need sexual reproduction devices, they even haven't a gender. They look as women, behave as women but they aren't women. Their first purpose to be was to replace real women in a society that needed women.
It may sound dark, weird or anoying, even to me.
But, ¡I don't care! ¡I don't care that Cherry is not alive, or that she's not a woman! I still deeply love her, she's a person, she has feelings, she can love others and that's enough to me.

Independent beings:

Yo? me? bokuga? Well, this question really involves many subjects as biology, philosophy, science, sci-fi, etc. Hmm, some animals are totally independent, although they're not very smart or haven't consciousness. I still can't properly answer this.

And one more thing, How marionettes know to behave as women? eh? They've never seen any. It's behavior is programmed in their circuits and that's a huge limitation for them. ¿How much are they pre-programmed?

 

Does having a reproduction device make someone a human? What about sterile people? What about people who were born with deformities? Does that make them not human? What about people who have LOST their sexual organs? Does that make them not human?

That's the whole point of the discussion. What MAKES us human? Is it the DNA? Is it that we have a brain? Is it that we can think? Feel? Fear? Take decisions?

I was thinking about this earlier today. A machine (realistically speaking) cannot take decisions on its own. Nor feel fear, or joy... the human may replicate some logical functions of the brain, but he'll never be able to replicate the human soul.

So, what makes the marionettes human? I say that their maiden circuit is what makes them human. There they got all the info required to behave like one.

How much are *WE* programmed? We do fear heights, don't we? How did we come to fear them, if we've never fallen from them before?

 

I wasn't saying that. The device don't makes them women, that's all. Generally speaking about humanity, there are two genders: male and female. There are many exceptions but, they're accidents, 'evolution' could say Nephilim_X.

You were close, but you're right, we *ARE* programmed. Everybody has survivor-code. Since the birthday this code is activated and ready to run. But fobias aren't that general. Fear to fall is too basic that's implemented in the survivor-code.

 

Of course it does! The very name of the device proves it! Maiden Circuit. If it were Human Circuit, I'd understand your point of view a little better, but the very name of the device disproves your point. If it didn't make them women, it wouldn't be called an Otome Kairo.

And this, this is the critical difference between you and me. You don't believe that Cherry, (or Lime, or Bloodberry, or any other OK (Otome Kairo) marionette) are alive. You say she's a person, yet you turn around completely by saying she's not alive. Tell me, what is the difference between being a person, and being alive?

The very series itself proves you wrong.

Spoiler: Saber Marionette J Program 25

Cherry herself, the very person you say isn't alive, says, "We are alive. Right now, as we fight for Otaru-sama and everyone on Terra II, we are definately alive! Just that fact alone, is more wonderful than anything I can imagine."

So, let me see if I'm getting this right. You say Cherry isn't alive. She says she is. You're calling her a liar. And besides that, you practically slap her in the face by saying the most wonderful thing she could imagine isn't true!

So, tell me, against immutable proof against you from the canon material, can you still hold your position? I have plenty more evidence just waiting to be rewatched.

I suggest you read the following two fanfics. They both say some very important things that may help to change your mind. Besides that, they both have extremely well-written, interesting stories.

1. Love Cherry, written by "vsdefender."
2. Human, written by "The Dark Phoenix"

 

Bzzzt! That have no sense. You're Shinryu, arent't you? That proves that you're a god of dragons?. It's name proves barely nothing, it's just a name.

I'm really not sure. Alive? not alive? Bio? Abio? She's a machine, I'm sure about it, she has consciousness of being, that makes her somebody, but, I still can't claim that she's alive for a while. I may be wrong, is possible.

I don't remember Cherry saying that there. In my spanish dub she says: 'Eramos marionetas pero nos diste sentimientos y por eso estaremos siempre agradecidas' Translating ---> 'We were just marionettes but you gave us feelings and that's why we'll thank you forever'. It could be a translation difference perhaps? Again, I may be wrong

I'm already reading them. Even the women thing came from 'Love Cherry'. It's good, but it's still wrong naming them as women.

 

Scientists don't name things without reason. They wouldn't call it an Otome Kairo without reason to believe that it would create human, and indeed, female personalities and emotions. My name, I chose because it sounds cool. I liked the name, and what it translates to. Whether it suited or not was not an issue. But you wouldn't call a lead pipe iron, would you? it doesn't make sense. Tin foil. It's not tin, it's aluminum. That's why they call it aluminum foil now.

Anyway, Lorelei named the device an Otome Kairo (Maiden Circuit) because it created a female personality. It wouldn't make sense to call it, say, a Man Circuit, now would it?

Look at my next response.

You're looking at the wrong point of the episode. Check later into it. Remember the point where Lime was looking back at a previous occurence, where she and Otaru were discussing happiness? She said it right after Lime finished that, and right before Bloodberry said,

Spoiler: SMJ Program 25

"Even if we die, the truth of every glorious day we spent with you will never be forgotten."

I think that's what she said. I need to check my quotes before I post them. But I can't teleport between my house and the library, so it's impossible.

Good job reading them, but again, you fail to see my point of view. Does the fact that they are machines make them unliving? No. They have human emotions, thoughts , and feelings. The very fact that they are even self-aware makes them living. But that is not the issue. They may not be alive in the fact that they are not flesh and blood, but they are alive in that they can think, and feel, and love.

The reason I linked to "Human" is not for the story, but for a quote from the very beginning of it. Here it is:

This is a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with.

Looking back:

How are you so sure?

 

First, a personality doesn't make anything human. Second, scientist may go wrong sometimes or may do silly things that confuse people.
I know that outthere are best examples but here's the first one: A robotic example: Aibo. He's a robot, he has 'feelings'. Aibo means 'pal' in japanese. Is he really a pal?

I think she says something like "...ahora que ... me siento mas viva que nunca..." Her feelings may be proof to her, but it's not valid for us. Nobody knows entirely how is she feeling then as nobody knows how am I or you feeling.

How could they be more human than a human? That's impossible.