Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

Hmmmmmmmm.......

Perhaps the question could be answered if we split it:

a) Are the marionettes human in the biological sense? No.
b) Are the marionettes beings with a human soul (read as: Human beings trapped in marionette bodies)? I think so.

Ta-da, end of discussion

lol.

 

Take a dog and give it deeper feelings, conciousness and INTELIGENCE, is it human? I don't think so. I don't have a Otome Kairo and I'm still a human. Do I need it? No. Marionettes need it to behave as humans. It makes them to look as us not to be as us. Is that not enough to you? I don't need more from them. Maybe our disagreement occurs because I'm almost-ultra-realist, not so much idealist.

I was sure enough while saying it, but human truth is never absolute. (2nd) So so. Both I think. Some of your arguments changed a little my mind and some of my thinkings weren't those.

(Not so ) Let's take away for a moment, I'm trying to be serious this time. [ADD]I already asked her, you know? But for some reason she don't want to answer me. Perhaps S-Cherry would answer it? I don't think she would, but we lose nothing asking her. Anyway being serious means to solve what we think, the thread question, we. No cheating allowed asking marionettes.[/ADD]

Don't worry. I understand your point of view and is a little tempting to be at your side.

This is questionable because of the different conceptions about what a marionette (MC|OK) is. I think that it may be we accept her the same.

I want them as they are, nothing more. 'I only want they're happy' as they want to be.

BTW, the spanish dub is as good as the SMJ one.

 

:blush2:

Way to back me up there Shinryu.

Okies, Let me try to explain what I'm attempting to get at.

DNA is pretty much an Acid. It's full name is "Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid", but that's beyond the scope (Look at me!! I'm showing off!!). Since we're building up human beings with Acids, why not use something else.

Instead of a human built of Acids (or a Paper Cup), why not use Iron (Plastic Cup). They're both humans (they're both cups), the only difference is the material they are made out of. Acids or Irons, Paper or Plastic, in the end they are still human (or cups). That's the way that I see it.

I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But I think there is a difference between a Dog with intelligence and an android with a heart and soul. (BTW I’m going to mix and match 'Android' and 'Marionette' here, they're synonymous, and android is a little easier to type. I hope no one flips. I'm just lazy, that's all.)

So, the biggest issue here is trying to convince Jedimdo that marionettes are Human. So how can we convince someone that a machine with a heart and soul is, indeed, human? Well, Bicentennial Man references aside, this is a tough little task. First let's get on the same page here. Here is how I define "Human"-

Now there is a difference between being a Human Being, and simply being 'HUMAN'. Being a 'Human Being' means you have to be a Homo Sapien, with a flesh and blood body, and carry (relatively) the same limitations like everyone else.

To be HUMAN, simply means that you are a bipedal, self aware, individual, and capable of feeling, understanding and expressing "Human Emotions". Something that is 'Human' must look, and act like a "Homo Sapien", with similar limitations as such. Brak, Pontas, Mickey Mouse, and Cthulhu are not 'human' (these are just a few random examples.). If you can turn into a puddle of water at will, you wouldn't be human anymore. The Wolfman is not human- Only sliver bullets kill him, unlike a normal, more fragile, person. If someone were to take your brain out of your body and stick it inside a giant mechanical Praying Mantis, Sorry- You're no longer human.

Goku is not Human.

I don’t care what anyone says, if you can *only* flatten an entire city on an "Off Day", you're no longer human.

In terms of limitations, 'Human' can also be relative to those who they live with. Despite the ability to use magic Harry Potter is still Human because his limitations are similar to those around him, though that is a stretch because 'normal people' also exist in the same world he lives in. He's really more of a Witch, or a Warlock.

Dorothy Wayneright from Big O is not human, because she has trouble/cannot express human emotions in the full range as we do. She's an Android.

Data from Star Trek is human. He's not a human being, but he's still human.

Obviously you can be HUMAN and NOT be a Human Being.

...I'm not so sure about the other way around.

One that is human can give and receive love. They are individuals who know right from wrong, make mistakes, learn and grow. To be Human you HAVE to be able to learn, and you MUST be able to Grow (mentally, not necessarily physically). A human will make mistakes. A human can feel pain. They can hope, and have dreams. They show anger and they cry.

To sum ALL that up, let me simply use this quote. It's from the move 'The General's Daughter'.

"The human eye can distinguish 15 or 16 shades of gray. A computer image processor can distinguish 256 shades of gray, which is impressive. More impressive, however, is the human heart, mind, and soul, which can distinguish an infinite amount of emotional, psychological, and moral shadings, from the blackest of black to the whitest of white. I've never seen either end of the spectrum, but I've seen a lot in between."


That's my stance. Now what do you consider to be 'Human'. What is your position? How do YOU define it?

:anime: I'm curious to learn.

Thankee for y'time.

oO And thanks for Shinryu for pointing out my sig was too large. ^^ I'm sporting a brand new, slimmer-sleeker-sexier one now.

 

In regards to people saying: They need a maiden circuit to be human!

You need certain parts of your brain to act recognizably as human. Whats your point? Take out the right parts and/or hormones and you don't act like a human at all anymore.

 

You're right. Take away those parts/hormones and you wouldn't be Human any more. You'd be a Homo Sapien, but not Human.

By taking away those parts/hormones you lose one of the key points that makes you Human- Your individuality. A vegitable is not an individual, right? They can't learn and grow.

It's really sad, I know it is, but it's the truth.

 

Okay. Let's go point by point: (All quotes from wertitis)

We aren't made of DNA. DNA is not the only ingredient which *Actual Only Humans* are made of. (Continuing down there \/)

Why is easier to a marionette to have a heart and soul? Dogs are alive, they love their owners. They just need conciousness and deeper experience, give it to them and what we do get? Even dogs are more similar to us than marionettes.

You're getting closer to the main obstacle all we have: what is what?
That definition of human looks, no offense, simplist and convenient. Even there are many contradictions and/or ambiguous things. You include only bipedal big mistake. It's valid to exclude similar situations: Siamese aren't human, they have 2 heads!. Some genetically troubled people aren't human too. Thay may have less than one leg or another member. Autists aren't human too, they can't express or understand feelings. Enough counter-proof:

Goku is more human than the marionettes although I don't consider him human because he's E.T., right? Although again he behave as humans do.
You've guessed, Data is not human, he's a robot.
Dorothy is not human too, she's just a very intelligent robot. I don't see much difference between Asimo and her only in their appearence.

Wrong, take away that and you wouldn't be even a Homo Sapiens. We are Homo Sapiens and Homo Sapiens will be for ever as they exist human.
...continuing from up there.
You said it, how can you be a human without all these complex chemical reactions. Almost all of our emotions come from hormones, Adrenalin, Serotonin and many more make us feel joy, fear, and others emotions. Being made of something else would be hard to replicate the same emotions. They would be similar but not the same.
I have a debt with you about your question 'what's a human?'. I'll answer it later. All what I want to do is to run out of this internet-cafe. Enjoy posting .
--------------------------------------------------
It seems that no one has noted the lorelei fact. For her marionettes aren't human. That means that Satoru-san also think like this.

Extremely, cold in here. The &·%&"·# keyboard has the comma key damaged, and again another chapter from Dark Phoenix . 45mins and boards.jp logged me off.

 

My doctor thinks I may not generate enough of a certain "joy drug" naturally (whether he meant some kind of endorphin or what, Im not sure). Does this make me less than human?

 

Okay, I'll do this in the other direction:
If a car loses a gear, it stops being a car?
No, it's still a car.
The same for humans. Yes, it's endorphin, and something is malfunctioning. You're still a complete human. Everybody get sick, don't we? Some sickness are weirder than others, that's all.

 

Ok, then what about this...

You have a pocketwatch given to you by your grandfather. One day, the lens breaks. So, you get that replaced. A few years later, the springs break, and you get them replaced. Later on, the chain is replaced, and so is the cover. After a long time EVERY SINGLE PART of it is replaced. However, we still regard it as your grandfathers watch, even though not a single part of it had anything to do with him.

Now the thing is, human parts are replaced all the time. It's estimated that every seven years we're basically working with entirely new cells, top to bottom. Yet we still regard ourselves as the same person.

So basically what I'm getting at is that... the parts don't matter. What they were made of doesn't matter. As long as it can function on the same level, isn't that enough? Nobody would believe the marionettes to be homo sapiens, but that's not what we're arguing. We're arguing over the "spirit" of humanity, something I believe that the marionettes are very well endowed with. So what if they need that specific circuit in order to feel it? Without parts of our brains we wouldn't be the same either.

 

You think this way, but i wouldn't consider it my grandfather's pocketwatch anymore, it's gone.

We are not our brains. All human sensations, perception and living of the world comes from the entire body. The brain itself don't do everything, many other organs are independent and without them we wouldn't have some feelings.

 

But what if we replaced the organs with something else that got the exact same results?

 

First at all, let's not turn this onto a 'chat room'.

Second, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would be very hard.
But a marionette's body clearly don't have this purpose, it'd need a lot of maintenance. Without their MC's, they have everithing we currently know.

 

Sorry, I couldn't think of anything to say right away. I'm not an expert in this field, so my responses probably won't be very helpful.

Because of the large number of posts since I was last on, I'm going to select only a few things to comment on.

Of course not, he's a Saiyan.

A couple additions to your examples:

Mahoro (Mahoromatic) is human. She is very similar to the marionettes in that she is an android capable of human emotions and feelings. She could also be included in these arguements.

A dog is, of course, not human. But that much is obvious.

Try this excercise. Put Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry, and, why not, Mahoro, in a situation in which they would have to hide the fact they are marionettes. (Like the opposite of what you wrote in Human, wertitis) Now, of course, as they already act as humans, they would be almost indistinguishable from others. I don't think anyone would be able to tell that they are marionettes, if they were trying to hide that fact, and, somehow, were in a location populated with human females.

I'll bring him up again. Adolf Hitler, Human? Maybe in physical form, but can you honestly say he is a human? After all he has done, can you call him human?

How about this. If Adolf Hitler is human, and the girls are not, jedimdo, are you saying that one of the most villainous people in all of history is more human that Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry are?

...Yankee.

Next, jedimdo himself.

Again, there may be translation differences. I will not allow myself to check this episode until I have rewatched up to it again. I'm currently on Program 14 of SMJ. But I still see very little proof that Akahori Satoru agrees with your point of view. A translated dub is not much to go on.

I have never lied about Cherry or her whereabouts.

And yet, you complain that they aren't human. I agree that it doesn't matter whether they are human or marionette. But I do believe they are human. (At the very least, I can't be wrong, thanks to J to X)

And I'm out of time for now, but soon I will have a quote to put this whole thing to rest.

 

Our bodies need maintenance all the time. We need to exercise to keep muscles strong, we need to get the right nutrients in our food, we need regular cleaning...

 

Whaaah, Mass misunderstanding.

What I wrote was MY definition of what it means to be "Human" which is different than BEING a human. I wasn't saying that was the standard, I was just telling you what I consider to be "Human".

#1- Bipedal means you walk upright with two legs, or at least it's in your genes to do that. As for Autists, that's actually a good point. I'll have to ponder that one and get back to ya. ;P Dont let me forget now.

And Genetically troubled people. Hmmm, that's a real bender, isn't it? If they're genetic code is dissimilar to the rest of us humans, are they still considered Human Beings (i.e Homo Sapiens). Is a child with Downs Syndrome still a 'human being'? That's a mind job to think about, and frankly it's waaaaay outside of the scope of this thread. I'll simply leave that be.

HOWEVER I would still consider them to be HUMAN, because they ARE bipedal, self aware, individual, and capable of feeling, understanding and expressing "Human Emotions", even if they have a 'handicap'. Thier genes are still designed to make them bipedal, however due to circumstances out of their control something along the way became messed up.


I guess with ANY rule there are exceptions- Nothing is infallible, and Jedimdo pointed that out.

But all of that was just MY definition of "Human". You still haven't answered my question Jedimdo- What do YOU consider to be human? You know what I consider to be human, what do YOU consider to be human?

My argument isn't "Are marionettes human beings?" They're not. Thier mechanical bodies are proof of that. The (my) argument is, and always has been "Are Marionettes (with maiden circuits) HUMAN?"

We already know they're independent, now how human are they really?

A few more things here and I'll be done.

The human brain works via Electricity. Our neurons fire off electrical charges that stimulate our cells and give us a perception of the world around us, and generates responses to these external stimuli. Hormones and the chemicals in our brains act like 'switches' and 'triggers' that cause certain cells to fire thier charges at certain times. The hormones merely stimulate when certain neuron's fire. They also affect body chemistry, which is interpreted by the brain and thus acted upon.

It's all about electricity and when the charge is fired. Who's to say you cannot replicate 'digital hormones'. You say it would be hard to do. Well, of course it would be. It's also really hard to map the human genome, construct an Air Craft Carrier, or to even paint photorealistic paintings.

It's hard, but not impossible. All of my examples have been done before, even the painting. That's the beauty of the human mind- Nothing is impossible my friend. We take our dreams and make them a reality. That's why we have horseless carrages, we traverse the skies, and created a system where we can talk to people all around the world in an instant (so we can talk about stuff like this ).

I have to dissagree. Your mind is everything, the body is only there to provide stimuli for the brain, which in turn interprets everything. The heart and liver and such CAN survive w/o the mind, but w/o the mind you lose your humanity. You're no longer "human" without your mind. Sure you're a human BEING, but you're not HUMAN.

Hah, okies. I'll wait for y'quote.

OMG another book. Sorry all. I guess I get carried away easily.

 

You're right but, what's your point? Marionettes clearly don't do this kind of maintenance.

Next quotes by wertitis:

I was counter-proving your human (not human being) definition.

My familiy has everybody blond hair and I have black hair, I'm appart of them? Genetic 'errors' are pretty common.

I said (wrote) to you that I'd answer it tomorrow.

I have to disagree too. The mind is NOT everything. Even it can be fooled by the body chemistry. It's like a symbiotic relation of feelings, we need them both. Without the mind I wouldn't be me, but still the brain needs the other organs too to fully enjoy the world. The brain is just the Microproccessor, it still needs the CPU's devices and exterior devices. An example: Without our 'nephron' organs (don't know their english name) in addittion to be death, we would miss the adrenalin, the fear and bravery hormone.
Also now you're speaking only about the brain. I think we'd never be agree because your human definition is reduced to the brain while my definition includes the whole body. Hmmm..., after thinking about it, it's against your human definition, you could simply it.

Check my edit.
Time's out+15mins. Posting tomorrow.

 

The fact that you tried to argue dissimilar functions meant they couldn't be human. (beside, they need sleep...)

 

Omg, I think we've lost sight of the whole point of this thread. Somewhere in all the Biology and philisophical mudslinging we forgot the whole POINT of all this. If you stilll wanna talk about Human and what it really means then I dont mind, just answer me one thing first-

Do you, Jedimdo, think that the marionettes (with maiden circuits) are TOTALLY independent beings? If not, why not?

I think the majority feels that they are. Where do you stand on this?

Once we get on the same page about that, then we can argue till we're blue in the face about what ever else y'want.

Sound Good? ^^

~wert has a headache... :dizzy2:

 

Still is not the same maintenance. They don't sleep because the same reasons of us.

It seems inevitable, I think there were 1 or 2 more topic desviations. We should go back to the principal topic, although this one looks really more attractive to everyone.

And if you do, why? The other side should answer this.

• I've already said it: They're independent, but not TOTALLY.
• They're made by humans and humans can't do anything equal to us.
• They have pre-programmed behaviors unallowing them to evolute in other ways.
• Someones say that they were a exact copy of Lorelei but I say: What if the Mesopotamia didn't could feel the all scence of Lorelei? They wouldn't need to be Lorelei herself.
• Still not considering them humans, so it'd be invalid to proof their independence by this.

What is a human?
I see a human mostly as a specie: Homo Sapiens(Wise/Knowing man). The only humans that I've really seen are in fact, all Homo Sapiens. There are many things into this definitions, we could include feelings, perception, moral, almost all things that has been discused here. Those who claim that Hitler wasn't a human say that he wasn't capable to love, or that he was too 'bad'. It's all relative. For him, he was doing something very good, 'cleaning the Earth from the impure races' and more. Who is right? 2nd. What about saying the 'Very good boy' instead of 'Very bad boy'. Would Jesus be human? The bible says that he was, but he was extremely good.

Add them two more legs and what do you get? Everything else remains the same.

 

All right, I've got a frickin' 9-page quote that should change the whole discussion.

Spoiler: Saber Marionette J to X, Phase 24

Lime: I know you two[Cherry and Bloodberry] want to become human beings too. Dr Hess says he'll turn us into human beings. Instead... Instead of this machine body, don't you want a body like Otaru's that's warm with blood? Don't you? Don't you both want that?!

Cherry: No. I'm happy the way I am. As long as I have a machine body, I can never be a real sister to those kids, or be a real mother to little Kotaru-chan, but, I don't mind that. I'll stay the way I am.

Bloodberry: Think, Lime. It's because we're marionettes that we were able to meet Otaru. Because we're marionettes. Don't you see that we have these incredible souls thanks to him? I'm sure Otaru wouldn't wish for us to become human.

Cherry: I think so too.

(In Faust's ship, Otaru is watching this over the security camera)

Otaru: Cherry... Bloodberry... Lime...

(In the Neo-Mesopotamia)

Bloodberry: Come on, Lime. Let's go.

Lime: No. That's not true!

Bloodberry: Lime!

Lime: That's not true! That's definately, totally, not true! Then tell me, why did Otaru leave us?! Otaru wants us to be human! He wants us to become human! I mean, we're really weird! What are we, anyway? Machines? No, we have souls. But we're not human. So, tell me what we really are! Don't you think it's strange? I know it's not right! It just can't be right! I just can't take this anymore. (She falls to her knees)

(Back in Faust's ship)

Otaru: Lime...!

Faust: Otaru! I'll bring the ship next to the Neo-Mesopotamia. Get on board when you have the chance!

Otaru: All right!

Faust: Approach the Neo-Mespotamia, full speed ahead! Begin attack!

Saber Dolls: Yes, sir!

(Faust's ship begins to fire on the Neo-Mesopotamia)

Hess: Faust...
(into Bloodberry's mind): Don't you want to be human?
(into Cherry's mind): Don't you want to be human?

(Bloodberry rushes forward an begins to tear Hess's machine out of the floor)

Lime: Stop it, Bloodberry!

Bloodberry: Of course I want to be human. There are lots of things I want to do as a human being. But, that's not possible!

Lime: But, Dr. Hess said...!

Bloodberry: You're being tricked!

Lime: But I believe him! Dr. Hess just wants to go back to Earth!

Bloodberry: Have you forgotten?! He's the one who took all of our memories away!

Lime: What...? Please, stop...!

(Bloodberry tears the machine out and throws it aside)

Cherry: Lime, there's nothing to be ashamed of the way you are. We may be neither human nor machine, but that's nothing to be ashamed of!

Lime: How could you...?

Bloodberry: Get a hold of yourself, Lime! How could you believe in a man like that?

Lime: You're horrible! Horrible!

Bloodberry (To Hess): This is all your fault! You manipulated her with lies!

Lime: Stop it, Bloodberry!

Bloodberry: Lime!

Lime: Leave me alone!

Cherry: Lime, your soul is a wonderful gift given to you by Otaru-sama...

Lime: I just... I just don't know anymore, how Otaru feels. I just don't know...

Hess: Thank you. I got all of your data.

Bloodberry: What was that?! But the machine is...! Oh, no...

Cherry: The whole room is like a scanner system!

Hess: I appreciate your help, my friends. And now I can finally go and annihilate the planet Earth.

Bloodberry: Annihilate Earth?

Cherry: What...?

(Hess laughs)

-Commercial Break-

Hess: All I've lived for during the past 400 years is to see that Earth is destroyed. The people who separated me from my family... the home of the people who abandoned me on this planet. (He laughs) I am going to destroy that planet by myself! The Neo-Mesopotamia is a spaceship that was built specifiacally for that purpose!

Faust: How could you, Hess...?!

Lime: Were you lying when you said you wanted to go home?

Bloodberry: You're not getting away with this! You'll never get away...!

(The girls are seized by the cords formerly attached to Hess's machine)

Hess: Fools... You wanted to be human that much, huh? Lime... I had absolutely no intention to make you human. And that is a show of kindness on my part. To want to become a wretched human is downright idiotic. Infected with ugly egos, they quarrel and quarrel until ultimately succumbing to the savage urge to kill each other. The despicable creatures are not worthy of your aspiration!

Lime: I believed in you!

Hess: Believing in me, just because you want to become human...

Lime: You said you'll make me...!

Bloodberry: Lime! Damn!

Otaru (bursting through the door): Stop it! Prepare to die, Dr. Hess!

Hess: Well, well...

(Otaru rushes at Hess, he disappears)

Otaru: A hologram!

Lime: Otaru!

(Otaru frees the girls)

Otaru: Did I ever say that you were inadequate because you were machines or marionettes? Did I ever say I wanted you to become humans?

Lime: No, but... you're... you're human...

Otaru: It doesn't matter! It doesn't matter... It doesn't matter if you're human or marionette for me to love you, I thought you understood that. I never thought you guys were suffering over something like that. I'm sorry... for not understanding how you felt. I'm really sorry.

Lime: Otaru... Otaru, I...

(Hess ejects them from the Neo-Mesopotamia)

Otaru: Damn!

Lime: Otaru... I can't forgive him! I can't forgive Dr. Hess! How dare he manipulate and hurt innocent people. But I can't forgive myself even more. Being tricked into his plan and letting him steal the data like that. And destroying Japoness and Xi'an, the places where the people I love are living.

Bloodberry: We feel the same way.

Cherry: The three of us are one. Whatever happens, that will never change.

Lime: Otaru! (As he struggles to his feet)

Otaru: Don't worry about me. Just promise me you'll come back. Promise me you'll come back.

(They hug)

So, given this long quote, I think the question changes from, Are they human?, to, What are they?

So, jedimdo, I conceed. The girls are not human. No, that's right, they are not human. They have transcended humanity. They have surpassed humans and become something greater. They have the souls of humans, with the immortal bodies of machines. They are greater than any human I have ever encountered. The word that properly describes them now is... Angels.

And my love for those angels will remain in my heart for all eternity.