Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

Perhaps yes, because maybe someones may still consider them humans. So here are some more facts that I recently got:

1. Limitations (from wertitis): Humans and marionettes don't have the same limitations. We don't have the same physics abilities or limitations. But the most important thing is: Humans DIE, yes, we die but marionettes don't. We have an autoself-desctruction code in our DNA. Marionettes can only be destroyed('killed'), whatever the destroyer is: another marionette or a human, an accident, or the unevitable, enviroment damage. At the end they could be destroyed but that's not supposed to be their 'fate'.
2. Refering bicentennial man: If you haven't seen this movie, you have to. There are many interesting conditions that could claim something as human.

:sweat2: Well, uhm..., that was, eh... Somethings may be discusable but I won't argue them, each one experience it in different ways. Anyway I like their description although I see them different and similar at once.
I think that someones confused the noun 'human' with the adjetive 'human', or maybe we were discusing different things. The girls are not human(n.), but they are human(adj.)(it have no relation with physical appearence), if this is the case I agree with you.
___________________________________
About your question Shinryu, you're right, that's the real one. What are they? I don't know how to say it now except that they are new, something that have never existed before. Many things must be redefined to give them a honorable place within beings. They are our greatest creation as specie. Greater than us? thay can't be greater than us because there is no comparation.

 

Score!

THAT'S what I wanted to hear. That is the point i was trying to get across. They ARE 'human'(adj.), however they are NOT human beings(noun).

Finally, something we BOTH agree on!

 

Well, it seems that ultra-long quote worked things out, then. I'm with Darkie (can I call you that?) here. Finally, we've worked things out and can agree.

But the true question remains.

Really, what are they? What word properly describes Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry?

You've heard my answer. I'm interested in what you think. Jedimdo, do you believe they are marionettes above all else? Darkie(still hoping I'm allowed to call you that), are they human? Something greater?

I will back up my opinion as I hear others.

[EDIT]What?! A short post?! How can this be?!! [/EDIT]

 

Darkie?!

oO; so long as Darkie doesn't suddenly turn into 'Darkie Warkie'.

Of course they're human (adj. style). But are they something greater? Have they transcended humanity?

...I wouldn't go that far.

In my opinion (maybe Luvweaver might agree with me on this one), It takes Divinity to transcend Humanity.

If you're catholic, Christ Transcended humanity.

If you're Bhuddist, Bhudda Transcended humanity.

Hercules (born with the divine blood of Zeus) Transcended humanity

If you're a fan of SMJ... Well, you still have to wait a little while yet.

That's what I think at least.

 

Darkie w.. , why didn't you said it before?

They are marionettes above all without Otome Kairos. They're more than just marionettes, but I don't know the word. But, being romantic I could call them angels (I don't believe in angels). Are they greater than humans? Darkie brought an important point, religion. But, without religion, I wonder what would happen if we had 5.000 million marionettes. The girls were lucky finding Otaru, but the saber dolls weren't so lucky. The marionettes have the same 'bad' feelings that humans have, I mean, they're pretty bad launching a poor man to the space. Now imagine a lot more doing the same. In fact, why would be they greater than us if they were designed with a human model? an 'exact' copy from Lorelei?
No, they're not greater than humans.

I know now. I'll call them marionettes. The other marionettes are just marionettes without 'hearts'. That's the simplest solution. What's a marionette? I think most of us would agree.

I just saw the same Phase here at Colombia and the translations are SO different. If this is exactly quoted then the SMJ experiences are a bit different too. ie. I think i only heard the word 'soul'(alma) once, and it was Otaru who said it. That's one of the reasons I'm learning Japanese, to see, play and hear correctly the japanese art.

. Something terrible must happened.

No more status footnotes? :dizzy2: STARVING!

 

This is an exact quote. I wrote down exactly what the subtitles said. And, by the way, I heard the word "Kokoro" (soul/heart) many more times than just once.

I can think of ways to classify them as angels. And just so you know, I'm not a religious person. Let's start with just 2 reasons.

1. Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry are all amazingly beautiful. Of course, this is true of many anime characters, but these three top them all. Angels are always extremely beautiful.

2. This is more important than the other. They came into Otaru's ordinary life, transforming him from a normal person into an extraordinary one. Had he not awakened them, he would have lived out his life in much the same way as all the other inhabitants of Terra II.

I can't really put the rest into words. It's just a belief, a feeling of mine, that's all. I see them as angels, and so I always will.

It could be worse. I could have waived posting altogether.

Time spent typing: >10 minutes.

Better?

[EDIT]

Ooh, you shouldn't have said that. Now I have to fight myself to keep from calling you that.

Why fight? It's fun to call people weird names.'

As fun as it may be, it's not nice. And didn't I kill you in the riddle thread?

Oh right. *disappears in a puff of logic*

I think they have. As I said, they have the souls of humans, and the immortal bodies of machines. They will never grow old, they will never fall ill, and they will never die. (Except if they are completely destroyed) Can you tell me that is not better than our existence of suffering? Although... It is that suffering that makes the good times more enjoyable. If we lived in happiness, we would not know it, because we would not know sadness. Thus, there would be no comparison.

Even so, the idea that the girls may one day die, makes me sick. I hate thinking about it, because I can't stand the idea. I want them to be immortal. I want them to live forever. As machines, they can. And, Darkie, you said it yourself. They are more human than the rest of the inhabitants of Terra II. Combine that with their machine reality, and you have... perfection.

 

Would a rose by any other name would still look just as Dark

Me and my big mouth...

%^&#$% ^&$#^$ %^#$%@&

#1- Angels are always extremely beautiful? Religion aside, can you tell me the angel of death is an 'extremely beautiful' minion of of God? I know it's kind of a weak point, but I'm trying to say not all angels are 'great and beautiful'. According to the Bible (from a completely neutral standpoint), even Luicifer and his minions are Angels. They're fallen angels now, but that's besides the fact. They're still angels.

#2 - Another reason I would have problems classifying them as angels is because if you read the bible (from a totally neutral standpoint) you would see that except for a few isolated occasions (was it Gabriel who talks to the virgin Mary to tell her the good news?) God didn't use the angels to spread love and kindness. The angels did his dirty work for them. Whenever he needed to get something done (like wipe out every first born in Egypt) he would call upon the Angels to do it for him.

Based upon that fact alone, if I ever saw an angel, odds are he's not there to spread good will towards all. If I ever saw an angel, I'd be hightailing it in the other direction. The last thing I would want to do is to be caught up in its whirlwind when things go down. You dont have to be religious to see this, it's printed in black and white in the Bible and, from a literary standpoint, it's obvious to see.

No, I do not beleive they are angels. Besides, angels are divine and as much as one would love to think so, they are hardly 'divine' in origin. Once again I'm looking at this from a neutral standpoint based upon facts alone. When I said it takes divinity to transcend divinity I was trying to be neutral there to. Mythology states that it takes the power of a god to raise one above the status of human (with the exception of Bhudda, but he's a little different).

Then where are they in SMJ R? Isn't that something like 300 years after SMJ?

Suffering? Mortality is what makes us 'human'. 'Suffering' is somehting outside of mortality. Once more (trying to be neutral here) if someone was sent to hell for eternal suffering? They wouldn't die, but you could bet they wouldn't be happy. Immortality doesn't immediately mean they woud live a life free from suffering. What if Otaru were to die some horrible death? Would they still be free from suffering? They would be forced to spend the rest of eternity living with the guilt of his death. That's not cool. True they would eventually heal (given enough time), but the scars would leave them as different people.

Human was a fanfic ABOUT the meaning of humanity. It was an attempt to discover the true core of feelings that make us people. Love, war and sacrifice define who we are and the age we live in.

Spoiler: Dark Phoenix's Human

That's one of the reason's why I killed them at the end. Despite thier origins and despite thier bodies, they were still human. Lime was plagued with a darkness in her soul that had grown to immense proportions, but her love for Otaru, and his sacrifice for her sake, allowed her to overcome that evil in her heart, and once again she regained her purity. She learned why the ones she loved sacrificied constantly for her, and in her last moments applied exactly what she learned. When she died she taught Otaru everything about love that she knew. Bloodberry and Cherry, who soon followed, only re-enforced that point. They gave thier lives for love, can you think of any better gift they could have given Otaru?

Death and suffering defined Lime. Her life was filled with tragedy. But it was selfless love and sacrifice for the same that allowed her to overcome the illness that had grown within her. Love, in the end, carried enough weight to topple an empire. Sacrifice taught Otaru what that love was in its purest form. Luvweaver didn't like the face that I killed Lime and her sisters. Most people didn't. What they failed to see was that in death, Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry did exactly what we are arguing about here. In death, thier selfless love allowed them to transcend humanity and become something greater. Are they dead? Only in the mortal sense. They left thier bodies behind to become something... divine.

Anyway, as 'immortal' as they were they were still humans, trying to find thier own place in the world. They were only trying to find love, warmth and happiness. As humans, deep within our cores, that is what everyone seeks. I feel they are more human than the rest of the inhabitants of Terra II because they remain true to thier hearts, always. They listen to the emotions deep within themselves and allow them to guide thier steps.

One of the things that separates us from the rest of the living things on this planet is that we go against those baser instincts. We go against our own personal urges for what ever reason. If we dont want to do something we still do it because it needs to be done, right? Any other living thing would say 'forget that, I'm not doing it."

Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry, are the same way as us, only thier selflessness sets them apart. Like I tried to point out in human, they are more than willing to throw everything away, they are more than willing to toss thier very LIVES out the window for the ones they love. They will end thier own existance if it would mean the safety of the one man they love. (Sorry Shinryu/Jedimdo, you know who I'm talking about ) SMJ proved that.

That is what makes them more 'human' than anyone else on Terra II. Who here is HONESTLY willing to make that kind of sacrifice for no more reason than love?

That's what makes them more 'human' (adj.) than a human (noun). Does it make them angels? No. Does it make them divine? No. Have they transcended humanity? No, not quite.

Immortality is cheap. Time again we see in fiction that immortality is a curse. To watch the ones you love grow old and die time and time again...

Death isn't the end of everything.

Spoiler: Dark Phoenix's Human

They died and rose into the heavens where they were given the chance to spend the rest of eternity in the arms of the ones they love. Only in death did they transcend humanity.

Hmmm... Now what about those they left behind? Are they doomed to live the rest of thier lives caught up in the guilt of thier deaths? Is it possible for love to 'overcome' death itself and bring two souls back together? Is it possible to change things... to postpone the 'inevitable'... Hmmmmm...

Wow, that was another novel... whew.

 

I know I stand from a somewhat flawed viewpoint, especially after Darkie's post, but I will defend what I can.

Well, I'll take your word for it. I haven't read the bible in years, so my knowledge of it is quite rusty. But, for some reason, when I think of an Angel, were I to put it in a single word, that word would be "purity." I never think of them as simply "God's" servants, but rather, as a pure, honest, and noble being. I don't remember how I started thinking of them that way, but that is really what I meant.

Call me a romantic, but, I can't look at the girls objectively. I see them, and, regardless of anything anyone says, I see them as something special. Something magical, even... divine. I cannot turn myself from this viewpoint, regardless of any arguement. It would be similar to trying to turn Luvweaver into an athiest, I guess.

First off, it's simply SMR. No J. Second, R happens in Romana, hence the R. Thirdly, we all know what happens at the end of J to X. I guess what I should have said is that they are functionally immortal. They will not die of natural causes, but they can be killed. And you are right, R happens 300 years later.

Ugh, another point that's difficult to say anything to. You are right. There is really nothing I can say to counter this. However, as I said, the idea that Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry may one day die sickens me. I can't stand it. Even seeing those words in the same sentence makes me sick. It's another one of those things I cannot change. I love them too much. I would rather they live forever, even without myself, or Otaru, than for them to die.

I can agree with this. I try to follow that same ideal.

Again, I can agree mostly with this. However, I pose this to you. If a mother cat saw her kittens trapped by flame, would she go to rescue them? A human mother would. No being can simply abandon it's children. Even with their instincts screaming, "Don't run into that fire!" they will anyway, because their children are trapped in it.

I am. I would throw my life away in a second if anyone I cared about were in danger of dying. I do not fear death, although I would not welcome it. I have my reasons for saying that, and I stand by them.

To be true, though, you'd have to be in such a situation to know for sure. It's an easy thing to say, a much more difficult thing to do.

I see your point, although I find it difficult to agree with. As I said, my view of angels is different from yours for reasons I'm not entirely certain of, and, my view of them is so biased now that it's difficult to change my mind no matter how much proof you show me.

No, but it is an end. One I don't care for, and one I cannot stand to think about when it involves Lime, Cherry, or Bloodberry.

And, I'm sorry, but I cannot say more.

 

Ouch, touched a nerve, didn't I?

I'm jsut trying to bring everything into scope. I don't mean to make anyone feel bad. ^^;;

Death is only an end if you consider it that way.

Or, perhaps, it is a beginning. It's a destination that everyone must get to someday. Even those left behind one day meets the reaper. Everyone alive today will be dead someday...

...Hah, maybe we can argue this point a little further in the afterlife.

Hey, dont get me wrong either. They ARE special, magical even. That's what makes them so appealing. It's what gives them thier charm, y'know?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I haven't finished J - X yet. Don't spoil it. oO; you've already said too much... Gyaaaaagh!! [shrivels up into a raisin]

A spider is not self aware. They function entirely from instinct. Yet some species too will defend thier young if threatened. Scorpions too. They'll piggy back thier young protecting them for a reletively long time. Instinct tells them to do this. Now a cat? Instinct will tell her to protect her young, but I can't argue that a little bitta love isn't involved as well.

Tough words. You're right. There's a difference between saying something and staring down the actual barrel.

Remember man, It doesn't matter how or when you die. What matters is how you lived your life.

This little convo reminds me of a fic I read on FF.net. I think you've read it too. It's by vsdefender and it's called "Love Cherry". All this talk brought it up.

~wert

 

jsut?

Anyway, This isn't something to discuss here, but how sure can we be that there even is an afterlife? You are, of course, right that we all will one day die, that much is obvious. It's still not something I like to think about. Maily because death usually brings, or is caused by, pain. Pain and suffering may be what makes us human, but do you want to feel it? Would you knowingly take pain upon yourself because it makes you human? No. All beings avoid pain. It is not something we actively seek out. (Unless you're a masochist, but then the pain is pleasure)

See, you know what I'm talking about. They are great in part because they are unique. If they were the same as all the other marionettes, would you think as highly of them? I love Cherry because she is Cherry. If she were anyone else...

Oops, but I didn't think I said that much. I haven't really spoiled anything. But, if you haven't watched it, did you read the quote I posted? That would certainly do it.

...A raisin, eh? *makes raisin pie* (Shinryu's favorite kind)

How can you be sure? What makes you so sure that a spider cannot think for itself? That it cannot feel pain, or jealousy, or anger.

For no reason, I will call attention to a humourous song I heard once.

"Even Hampsters Fall in Love"
By Hampsterdance

If something as small as a hampster can fall in love, who's to say any of the creatures you mentioned cannot? As the song said, "A heart's a heart no matter how small."

That's a definite fact. But I like to believe that I am brave enough to look death in the face when it comes calling, whether for myself or another. It's just one of those things we have to wait and see on.

Amen. I've been saying that for years. I try to live my life as best I can. Even though I do not believe in any god, I live my life according to my own self-defined morals, that, I will say, though I do not intend to brag, place me above many people in our world today.

Ah yes, I've read it, and posted links to it on this forum more than once. Would you happen to know how to contact the author? I've been wanting to read the rest of it forever.

 

A joke, Darkie!
-----------------------------------------------
Oh, my! This is too much to read.

About the translation: I just checked kokoro and yes, it means heart, spirit, mind. The SpDub translated it as heart/corazón. I think this have some differences in the western world, don't you?

Suffering is a must be in this world, without it wouldn't exists joy. It's like mathmatics, each thing have it's inverse. Think in Tolkien's elves, even some of them couldn't hold their suffering and they died. I don't like to suffer but it's some of the experiences that makes us humans.

Why would the marionettes greater than us if they are copies? 1. They're imperfect copies of Lorelei, 2. They're made by imperfect beings, humans. They're as us, and may have the same virtues and the same 'bad things' They aren't pure. But, as a metaphor, I could call them angels.

 

I see. Yeah, that would likely make a difference.

Unfortunately, you're right. Suffering is not a thing anyone enjoys, but it is a necessity. At the very least, the worse things get, the better you'll feel when it's over.

Spoiler: SMJ to X

Just imagine how Otaru felt when he found out Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry were okay. And also, imagine his relief when they got their memories back.

Finally, a chance to use this quote: "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts." -Urza Planeswalker

Just because they were created by imperfect beings does not mean they cannot become perfect. Imperfect copies of Lorelei? More or less, I'd rather say they are partial copies of her, and then only at the beginning. If Lorelei were better than they, because they are mere "copies" of her, then would you not love Lorelei more? She's better than them, right?

For an example of a copy, even an imperfect one, suurpassing the original, I call attention to Rezo, the Red Priest, from the Slayers Universe. Eris created a copy of him, who took center stage as villain after Lina defeated Shabranigdo(reborn from Rezo). He easily surpassed the original. The best way to have you know is to tell you to watch Slayers. He surpassed the original the moment he opened his eyes and wasn't immediately possessed by Shabranigdo.

To me, at least, they are perfect. They may have their faults, but, I cannot see them. Anyway, a person's faults are what make them interesting. Everybody hates a Mary Sue.

 

Ewww.... Raisins

Here's where you and I disagree. It's true they are imperfect human beings, but it's their imperfections that make them pure. In order to be perfect human beings they would have to have fits of jealousy and anger. They would have to be prone to greed and violence. They would have prejudices and think in generalizations.

Yet these aren't traits we associate with them. Sure they can be prone to a little jealousy and anger, but would they ever start a jihad against a group of people for any reason? Would they ever commit or be fooled into committing mass acts of genocide? Would they ever act heartlessly toward any other human being?

Sure we might say that we'd never do that...

That's what the German people might have said prior to Hitler's harsh words.

That's what Americans say now... Only after we had to forcefully put an end to slavery and then segregation almost 100 years later.

That's why Russia had to suffer through the hostage situation AT A SCHOOL... Because there we're all good people who are above that kind of mindless violence.

Our history, the history of MAN, is defined by war. War and violence. Our major, earth shattering moments in history are DEFINED by violence. The fall of Rome, The American Revolution, the Inquisitions and the Crusades, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the war to end all wars (WWI), or even the cold war. Aggression is what makes us human.

I guess at this, my argument that those three marionettes are 'human' (adj.) falls apart, because they really aren't truly human.

They are incomplete. They are imperfect. They lack that aggression that makes the rest of us 'human'. They cannot stand the sight of another suffering, or of another human dying.

We might try and say that we are the same- That we are like them as well. But out own actions betray us. The movies we watch, the video games we play, the music we listen too. We say one thing yet do another.

It doesn't make us bad people. Most of us (hopefully all of us) wont ever kill anyone. We wont commit senseless acts of violence.

But we're still fascinated by it. Our very culture reflects that. We are just as obsessed with death as the early cultures of Medieval Europe and even before then. We just have different ways of showing it.

We live in the kind of culture where it's perfectly acceptable to see someone die on national television, yet it's completely unacceptable to reveal a breast. It's ok that the good guys 'kill' the bad guy on children's shows, but the moment someone reveals too much, parents are up in arms against that.

That is why they are 'incomplete'. They do not tolerate these 'perversions' our society so openly embraces. They would not kill nor would they tolerate the death of anyone- even the bad guy. They refused to see Faust die and promptly told the leaders in charge of Terra II to shove it when asked to do so.

That is why they are 'imperfect', and that is why their imperfections make them pure. It's true- imperfect parts can create a perfect machine. It's their imperfections that make them perfect.

So, I guess they aren't "true" humans on the inside. Instead they are all what we want humanity to be like. In that aspect they are complete.

In that aspect they are pure.



...Oh yeah, Shinryu- Raisins are gross.

 

And Aristoteles said that animals (later just insects) were created in an instant. Who was wiser?

I agree, they aren't imperfect copies, they're partial copies.

Smart, but I can't agree. Humans aren't violent because anything, we are violent because agression or behaviors against us. It's mainly a defensive instintc. As I said before, Otaru was the one who raised them that good, while Fausuto, did nearly the other direction.

Spoiler: Saber Marionette J Program 03

Pantaa, by her own will, tries to kill the Shogun. It's magnicide, and Fausuto didn't order her to do it

Panta wants him to suffer and would do anything to make him to pay.

Finally uploaded a decent 'under construction' page. I made it the last monday.

 

Unfortunately, you are right. Humanity cannot live in peace. It goes against our very nature. Although, what we enjoy in video games isn't the same as what we enjoy in reality.

Look at Grand Theft Auto. You like the game, right? But you'd never go around shooting people, hiring prostitutes, stealing cars, etc. Not simply because it's illegal, but because you have a moral objection to it. (At least, I hope you do) But you still play the game, and enjoy it. (Personally, I hate it)

We kill in games because we never would in reality. Some of us play violent games because they need to vent emotions, and would rather shoot 100 people in a game then kill even 1 in reality.

I'm a pacifist, I hate suffering, and I hate seeing people dying. Does that make me inhuman?

I don't enjoy these "perversions" either. As I said, I hate violence, and death, and suffering. I could not even wish Dr. Hess dead. Am I incomplete? Am I inhuman?

So, perhaps the proper term is "ideals." They reflect what humanity should be, the way we ought to be. The aren't human, because they are better than us. They are better people, more emotional, more compassionate, and less selfish, destuctive, or violent.

That is why I say they have surpassed humanity. Because they are ideals. Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry represent what we should be, what we need to become. We (humankind) need to grow up, and embrace the ideals they represent. Until we do, they remain better than us.

Unless they're in pies.

Obviously, Aristotle, a real person, who actually existed is wiser than an impetous, imaginary artificer from a story. But your arguement seems to have no correlation. How does Aristotle come into this? How does his idea relate to Urza's? I don't understand.

And, in that partiality, they surpass her, as well, just as they have surpassed the rest of humanity.

Fausuto? Oh, romanji. If you wish, you can just call him Faust.

Anyway, humans are not violent because of our upbringing, our temperament, or our personality. It's part of our nature. We, (humans) cannot avoid being violent because we have no control over it. Humanity is a violent race, and that cannot be changed.

Ahh, now I see where you're going with it. Now, to nitpick. In English, upside-down punctuation is unnecessary, in fact, nonexistant. Cherry isn't yours? So you've finally given up then? And finally, Satoru Akahori

Responding time: 24 minutes. Didn't log me off.

 

I'm starting to believe in your telepatic skills . Your range reachs Colombia or maybe we think very similar. Why do we fight? Well, that's a natural way to solve a conflict. Kids fight because they need to learn to relate with their community, among many other good reasons. I'm pacifist, and as Shinryuu (can I call you with this 'extra' u?) pointed, because I don't enjoy seeing someother suffering I'm not less human. I don't like games as GTA, but not Age of Empires, C&C, and many others games. Maybe is because I have the potential that I'm human,Darkie? You should clear this point.

That's nice. But I've only seen 7 marionettes. What about 5.000 million marionettes? The best 3 ones, yes, they're "human ideals". But, that's not something we are missing, I think that's our potential and, with Darkie's post, then we would be equal humans(adj.) as they are.

Because someone says something that doesn't means that he/she's right.

I would prefer to call him Fausto but I need to call him with his english or japanese name at boards.jp. Just wanted to call him different.

Yes, that's on our DNA and if we change it, we wouldn't be humans(n.) anymore, transhumans perhaps.

So, with these three last posts, one conclusion from me is, marionettes(adj. : ohh : ), are ideals, potential humans images. We are like them, but we don't show us as we should do, as I can't completely express myself through a virtual board and less in english.

I knew you were coming with this! I haven't given up, but, Satoru Akahori doesn't know that I'm with her. I couldn't contact him so, to avoid legal troubles I have to publish lies like that one. BTW, how's the letter going?
Grammar? . It still needs some work.

 

I think that children learn to fight because, in their minds, the quickest way to stop an arguement is to injure the opposition to the point that they can no longer argue. Unfortunately, many of us never learn better. *cough* George W. Bush *cough*

Telepathy is quite a useful ability . It's strength is determined by the mental strength of the user. It's just not fun when you can't control it. I won't go into the details about that, though. I will say that telepathy has told me the truth about you and Cherry.

Perhaps it is that the most common human is what he has said. Simply because we do not match that description does not mean we aren't human, simply that we are unusual.

I was talking about the best three only. For example, I would not consider even Luchs, Tiger, and Panther ideals. Actually, I've come up with another possibility.

Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry signify the ideals humanity strives to reach, while Tiger, Luchs and Panther signify the humans that aspire to become ideals. After all, they are surpassed by Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry rather quickly, and ever after, they struggle to match them.

Ie.

Spoiler: SMJ to X, Phase 01 or 04

Luchs: Do you think we've developed to the level Faust-sama expects?
Tiger: We'd have to be at least Lime's level.

Ahh, see, that, I can understand. But it is interesting that you don't see them as perfect, while I do. May I ask, what would have to improve about them for them to become perfect in your eyes?

Ah so.

Umm... yeah, I can understand how you can't completely express yourself. I'll admit I am having trouble understanding you meaning here.

I see. Well, as I mentioned above, telepathy has told me the answer. I know the truth about you and Cherry. I wonder, if you would publish lies like that, what stops you from lying here? [/Sherlock Holmes]

As for the letter, the first draft is written, but I'm having trouble getting to post it. I will post the draft ASAP in the letter thread, but it may take some time.

 

Fire in my eyes

Ok, this isn't a *Hate Bush* thread, but since you brought him up I'm going to put in a few words about my idiot commander in chief. Sorry to all those who hate hearing about him.

What most people seem to miss when they read about Bush and what he's doing is that he actually believes that he's doing the right thing over there. Apparently killing innocents and inspiring terror is the key to solving this "War on Terror". He believes that if democracy were put in place over there, all the terrorists would simply "go away" and this "Silly Jihad" would end.

He *actually* believes this.

I'm terrified that he will remain president of the United States for the next 4 years. We will never be able to recover from the damage he'll do.

Lemme put something into perspective- I know this is an American sailor speaking here, but just bear with for a second.

There is a cycle going on in the middle east that almost all of the US, her allies, and (most certainly) the Bush Administration fail to see. It started over 30 years ago when we decided to get our hands in a war of hatred almost 2000 years old against the Jewish people and the Muslums. The center of this stage is none other than Jerusalem, and the land of Israel.

The UN (lead primarily by the US) decided to "Give" Israel to the Jewish people and make that their own sovereign nation. The Muslims were not happy. They feel that Israel was rightfully theirs (and at the time it was).

It's like this- You moved into a new house and you think it's a great house. One day the people who lived there before you knock on your front door and tell you they want their house back.

'Their' house?

You tell them to shove off, it's yours now. You fought to earn it and they left. Well, those people come back time and again, demanding that you give them back their home. Fights break out once and a while but you remain the owner. This goes on for over 2000 years. Suddenly the new mayor of the town, backed up by the entire police force rolls up one day. They knock on your door and say- "Hey, we think these people should live here. You don’t own this house any more, they do."

Let’s say that this house was really your holy land, you're the Muslims who lived there, and the people who lived there before you are the Jewish. Let's say this "Mayor" was the Un and their police force was the USA.

Wouldn't you be a little pissed off? What right does this mayor have to move in one day and tell you how things should go? He's got no right to say anything, it's not his business!! He wasn’t even around when this started!!

Well that's what happened. No wonder they're pissed off at us.

So they learned to hate us. And they taught their children that hate. Their children grew up harboring those ill feelings. Some of them lash out. Bombings occur against US military sites. What do we do? We bomb them back. Innocents die. Our bombs WERE 'meant' for the terrorist factions and THIER buildings... whatever.

The survivors watch those they love die. People who were once neutral against us are now holding their loved ones dead bodies. Men, women and, even more horribly, Children are dead. Those who were neutral turn their sorrow into rage. Who are they going to blame? The terrorists on their side who bombed some American base 10,000 miles away... or the country whose flag was painted on the nose of those missiles that killed their families?

They have children, and they teach their children their hate. The children grow up, and they lash out at us. World Trade Center Bombing... 9/11... What do we do? We bomb them right back. Innocent lives are forever taken once again in our self-righteous 'vengeance' against those who had NOTHING to do with the bombings.

The cycle repeats it self over and over again. That is hatred in its most terrible form. That is what is happening in the Middle East right now. I can only shiver in fear at the thought of 4 more years of this senseless death. Bush, the "upright Christian" kills people everyday. He is on his own little 'crusade' to exterminate those he feels are threats against his ideals.

Thou Shalt Not Kill. Those words are lost under his blithering ineptitude and his single tract, war mongering ideals.

...Ahhh, but that is beside the point. The whole point of the little story above illustrates how humanity works. Hatred didn't start the process. The Jewish people and the Muslim people both believed that they owned Israel. That's what their faith told them. Rather than work together, they decided to start a war- because God told them to kill the other side. Hatred was born from that. And then we step in with our almighty arrogance. Here’s a 2000 year old war and we think we can solve in a few short years. That hatred was turned to us, and when our people began to die, our hatred was turned to them.

That is what I meant about the 'perfection' of humanity. Hatred is as old as our history. Children don’t just 'learn' it. We teach it to them. We breed that violence.

War is in our genes man. It's what makes us who we are and what has defined our culture. Of course you're human, man. Just because you like war games and other strategy sims doesn't make you bad person. You're just interested in war. You can be a pacifist and be interested in wars. It's from our most grievous mistakes in the past that we learn how to avoid them. Peace can only be achieved by learning about who we once were and what makes us fight. A pacifist that knows the intricacies of war knows how to prevent battle. And he who knows how to prevent battle, knows how to prevent senseless death. Saving lives is what most good natured people want to do.

Nobody WANTS to kill another human being (psychos, nutcases and the Bush administration aside). But when our good nature is clouded by hate, we do terrible things. Germany of the thirties was in ruin and Hitler cultivated the hate of the people and turned it towards the Jews. Their hatred clouded their eyes and before they knew what happened 5 million were dead. They were good people, people like we are today.

It's a testimony the power of hate.


Lime, Cherry and Bloodberry don't carry this hate. They get angry, but anger is different than hate. It is in that respect that they are imperfect 'humans', and it is in that respect that they are absolutely perfect. THAT’S what I meant to say. Anyone care to contest that statement?

Hatred breeds hatred. It has always been and, as long as human beings live on this earth, it always will be. That is the true tragedy and ultimate imperfection of mankind.

Gaaaagh! This was a lot more political than I wanted it to be. Sorry about that. I'll try to curb my tongue in the future.


I wanna Gyro...

 

And that, is the very arguement I needed to convince my grandma that Bush is not suited to be president. Anyway, you've made a very good point, and I don't see any reason, or even possibility of disagreeing with you.

You've made a very good point in that.

No matter how strong the power of hate, no matter how much it consumes a person, a nation, or a race, it is nothing next to the power of love. Love is more powerful than any other emotion, and true love can conquer all.

It's weakness, however, is that love is a pure power, and it can be turned to good or evil, and it's power can be transmuted into hatred. My love for Cherry will last forever, and I'm sure jedimdo feels the same way. I would do anything for her, and I would give my life in a second if it would save hers.

Here, I will pull a quote from The Last Samurai. "My lord, if you believe me to be your enemy, command me, and I will gladly end my life." Said by Captain Nathan Algren to Emperor Meiji. I would say the same to Cherry, replacing "My lord" with "My love."

However, if anyone were to... to... cause the unthinkable to happen... I can't say what I'd do. I know that I would hunt them down with a vengeance unmatched by any, and make them suffer as no one else ever suffered. In this case, my love for Cherry would create hatred for another.

Exactly. I will not contest that statement, because I agree with it. Even I carry hatred. It is something I, nor anyone else, can help. But here is a question. What if somebody killed Otaru? How would the girls feel toward that person? Can you say they would not hate him? Would they simply be able to let it go?

I try to eliminate hatred wherever I see it. It's no easy task, and it is a losing battle, indeed, it cannot be stopped, only slowed. Love conquers all, but hatred always prevails. Good always wins, but evil never dies.

 

I won't. I never could say that because I've never seen them in that way. Although I've seen only a few days of their lives (Of course, except Cherry, Shinryu).

You shouldn't be so dark Darkie . You're 'right' but, war is not in our genes, *violence* is in our genes. But, is that all? Certainly not, because love is also in our genes, love to our equals, our possesions and many other things that come from love. I'd say that we are a neutral specie, being, etc.. I mean love + hate = 0. Aren't we what we are because of our freedom? We have the power of love in one hand and hate in the other, that's the gift and the price of freedom. Wars are started by either hate or love. I don't know, but, I could say that Bush does what he do because he loves all americans (he may not hate muslims). (Hey, this is a possibility although I'm not supporting it. I DIDN'T MEAN IT, PLEASE DON'T BOMB MY HOME!, actually, this is a common behavior of non-americans).
Even with the entire world against me, I'd start a war to protect Cherry from anything. Is this good or bad? What should remain, Cherry or the rest of the humanity? Nothing is good or bad, it's just love and hate.

After claiming that the three saber girls are angels, ideals, humans(adj.), I wonder now, what are the saber dolls? hmm? They're also marionettes, they have the *same* circuits and they have lived almost the same things that the saber girls. What are they? I'll post something after you guys.

Believe it or not! While my sister was working in the computer without saving it, I told her "Power will be gone in 5 secs", ..., and, ..., zaps! You know the rest and she could save the work. This is not really telepathy but is very related. But if you know how to control the Force you can do amazing things.

That's really the internet nature, how do I know all these posts are real? could be there a big brother watching me? I guess I'll never know. Telepathy? Truth? May you could PM me?