Saber Marionette Are the marionettes (with maiden circuits) TOTALLY independent beings?

Ah, ah, ah! Telepathy, remember? I know what you're thinking right now. I know you've had this thought at some point: "I hope Shinryu never finds out the truth about Cherry and myself." Of course, that's after translation from Spanish.

Umm, didn't I just say that? Although, you've added a little bit. Perhaps we are born with equal amounts of love and hate, but our upbringing, personality, and experiences unbalance it, and we may find ourselves with more love than hate, or more hate than love. Truly, the latter would be an awful life to have. Consumed by hatred, all you could do is destroy, and hate, and suffer. Consumed by love, however, things could be bad also. You may be blind to a lover's true nature, seeing them as perfect until it's too late, and they've hurt you in a tremendous way. (This won't happen between myself and Cherry. Or you may make rash decisions based upon that love. Ie: starting a war over love is certainly an action without thought.

As I said, I think the Saber Dolls represent us (humanity) as they aspire to reach the level of Lime, Cherry, and Bloodberry. They are surpassed very quickly by the girls, and ever after, they aspire to reach the level they have reached. So, the Saber Marionettes are ideals, and the Saber Dolls are humanity striving to reach those ideals. That, is what I believe.

I swear to you, All of my posts have been true.(My serious ones, anyway) And I think the only "big brothers" watching us here are BakaMattSu, and Cloud. BakaMattSu is more like one of those goofy big brothers who is good-natured, nice, and will stick up for you in a pinch, even if they're a bit clownish. Cloud seems more like one of the dark, brooding types who speaks little, but does a lot. While it seems to me that he would also stick up for you in a pinch, he'd just as likely knock you down if you crossed him or did wrong.

 

Could you translate it to spanish? or 're-read' it in spanish?

Well, yes and no. The basic idea is very similar but there are many other points. That's was something I needed to say so some points could have a base, although, I recognize it, your post is similar. (Hey! perhaps you cheated while Cereza was making sushi here to me? I had that post in my mind then.)

That's not really all to say. Aren't we humans all the same? Are you saying they're different beings to them? Or you and me are different to other humans?

 

I hope Shinryu never finds out the truth about Cherry and myself.
Espero que Shinryu nunca descurba la verdad sobre Cereza y misma.

...I think. The distance might have garbled it somewhat.

What I said initially simply had to do with the fact that your post seemed very similar to mine when I first read it. After I read it again, I noticed several important points that I expanded on. And, yours cannot be the true Cherry, as she doesn't even have the right name! Cereza, indeed. (Even though it's the Spanish translation of Cherry, they left it as Cherry for the Japanese dub, so why did the change it for the Spanish dub? If they used the Japanese translation in the Japanese dub, I'd be sitting here telling you how I love Sakura) Anyway, now isn't the time to argue over who is with the real Cherry.

I think you misunderstood. I said the Saber Dolls represent us humans, as they strive to reach the same level of perfection the girls have reached.

 

Although I never thought that, the translation is almost correct.
Espero que Shinryu nunca descubra la verdad sobre Cereza y yo (mismo/myself).
The distance added 'nunca', I think.

Even Cherry isn't correct, although it's the base for the japanese name: Cherii. That's her REAL name, Cherry 'japanized'. And you say that you love Sakura, she's not Cherry, therefore you love somebody else! Because the correct translation is Sakuranbo. Sakura is the flower, while Sakuranbo is the fruit . Anyway, you're caught!

Yes, I misunderstood a bit.
They represent us, that's ok. But that's looking at them different each other. With all them together, as marionettes(ALL marionettes. All marionettes have Otome Kairos, Maiden Circuits, Female Circuits, Circuitos Vírgenes, etc.), they're the same. I'm looking for a word(s) whatever the time or experience are. So, if the Saber Dolls represent us, then humans are equivalent to marionettes, because within humans there is a difference between each person as the one between the girls and the dolls.
Do you agree?

 

Hmm... I don't know, that 'nunca' came through pretty clear. With the garbling of descubra, it sounded a bit staticky, but 'nunca' came through clear as a bell.

Well, close enough, as I have said many times, my knowledge of Japanese is very limited, and I hadn't a clue as to which was the fruit. Anyway, Sakuranbo is a rather clumsy name, wouldn't you say? I think, if they were translating the names, they would go with Sakura over Sakuranbo. Anyway, Cherii is, of course, her name in Romanji, but it's pronounced the same as Cherry. I don't see how I'm caught, though. I never said I love this 'Sakura.' Only that if they had translated the names, that would likely be Cherry's, and I would be talking about how I love her.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that we represent regular marionettes? Or what? Help me out here.

 

It's true the first time you hear it. But later you could know that it's silly. Romaji, kana, kanji, they're all the same: japanese. And it's pronounced 'Chereee'(english).

I suppose that Cherry haven't told you her japanese name ever. That's the only explanation that I can see for your mistake.

No, I don't mean that. Marionettes (All of them, including the girls, the dolls and many others to come) and humans (All of us) aren't too different, because, as the dolls, many humans are trying to reach their good potential, while a few others are very near to it.

 

Well, I've always called her Cherry. What other name should she have? In the Japanese dub, they still call her Cherry, although it's romanized as Cherii, the name is still the same. I never saw any reason to say her name in another language, so...

Ahh, now I understand. I can't really think of a proper response to this, though.

It seems this thread has pretty much run it's course. It just seems to be winding down now, since most of the arguements brought up have been resolved, and most questions asked have been answered. I really can't think of anything else to say. I'd bring up the topic of SMR, asking people how independent the (OKed) marionettes in it are, but the only person who'd be able to answer, as far as I know, is BakaMattSu. So it seems to me this thread is finished.

It's gone through "Are they independent?" to "How independent are they?" to "Are they human?" then, "What is humanity?" followed by "What are the girls?" and finally, "What are the Saber Dolls?" I don't think there's anything else to discuss here.

It's really too bad, I rather enjoyed this debate.

 

You're totally right. I already realized this few days ago. Wow! more than 100 posts, this have been a good debate. Also I can't see something else to discuss.

Some 'The Lord of the Rings' Stuff
As for my last question, well I've already said what I think. When I read TLOTR before "The Silmarillion", I saw the elves as unreachable beings for humans. But, after TS, I understood the differences between Eru's sons, each race has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Really, no one is better than other, the same between marionettes and humans.

Warning: Maybe some Spanglish here. If you don't understand those words, translate these: 'ventajas' & 'desventajas'

 

Although I am late for the main discussion, I would like to state my opinion about this matter, if nobody minds.

First of all, I used to think that marionettes (the ones with Maiden Circuits) weren’t fully independent beings, but as soon as I just stopped taking this fact for truth and give it some thinking, I realized how wrong I was.

Indeed, marionettes seem to be very dependant on their masters, especially when they just wake up, when they act very much like young children (not only Lime, but also more intelligent and supposedly more mature Cherry and Bloodberry; c’mon, setting up a “The hero saves the heroine” scenario or taking unwilling beloved into an air trip on a flying machine of questionable quality is hardly a mature thinking).

However, as the series progress and marionettes mature, we see them becoming less and less dependant on their masters. Of course, their masters is still their “everything”, as they love them with all their hearts/Maiden Circuits, but they start to learn that sometimes blind obedience isn’t the best way to serve their masters. Near the end of Saber Marionette J, Luchs and Panther refuse to obey Faust’s orders, even though they know that it will probably be the end for them, hoping against hope that their beloved master will see how wrong he is. And soon after, Otaru’s marionettes also disobey Otaru in order to save him along with Lorelei and the rest of the people of Terra II.

And by the time of Saber Marionette J to X, marionettes developed other values, even though serving and protecting their masters remained a top priority for them most of the time. Cherry refuses to obey Otaru and acts completely independently in order to do what she thinks the best to protect the child. And later, Lime likewise refuses to obey Otaru and acts completely independently in order to protect the forest, and she is soon joined by Cherry and Bloodberry. Panther actually goes as far as to betray the one she thinks of as her master in order to save Lime from none other then Tiger. If this doesn’t prove marionettes’ independence, then I don’t know what does.

To conclude it, marionettes started as very dependant beings, but as they grew-up and collected life experience of their own, they were becoming less and less dependant on their masters, until they finally grew to be completely independent beings. In this regard, they are very much like we, humans, are.

As about how human marionettes really are… truth to tell, I have never given this problem much consideration. I’ve always thought of them as marionettes and I had no need to call them otherwise, like “angels” (if I am getting spiritual) or “artificially created non-organic humans” (if I am getting technical). I must say, however, that despite having artificial bodies, marionettes developed very human-like personalities/souls, and so when Jedimdo-san asked me…

…I answered…

…And I still stick to my opinion.

Anyway, if there are fully self-aware, independent machines like Lime, Cherry, Bloodberry, Tiger, Luchs, Panther and Marine, capable of having all the emotions we, humans, have, is it so important whether you are human or no

I believe that a scene from Ghost in the Shell, where I first saw this question asked, was something like…

Ano… Anyway, I stated my opinion about this matter, and unless someone decides to comment it, I guess I don’t have anything more to post in this thread.

Sayonara.

 

I will say simply... "look here."

 

meh im a lowly newb so not gunna go all deep on this one like all u guys so ill just spit it out simple and plain ^_^...i think yes and no...they have the choice to be totally independant...but since most of the time they're latched onto otaru (likewise with the saber dolls to faust) it kinda puts a little damper on the TOTALLY independant thing...but for the most part yes they are independant

 

That part of the discussion is looooonng over by now. This thing started back in October. But it's an interesting point of view you have. Especially coming from you, now that I know who you are.

Here's a link to a post that shows my opinion.

http://www.boards.jp/forums/showpost.php?p=193758&postcount=12