Debate Samurai or Ninja

changed my mind!
actually I like em both!
I really don't have a preference

 

I am for Ninja.

Just a personal favorite melee fighter I've always had.

 

Historically, samurai did not initially have honour either, and developed the code later on (closer to the death of the samurai system rather than the birth).

 

well the samurai used a Tachi in the older periods of Japan...around the 1600s a switch occured from using the Tachi as the main long sword to the Handachi which was a half tachi half katana stlyed sword which was first used during the Muromachi period (1392-1573) and were also called Uchigatana. this particular style never really went out of style for a next 300 years. The Katana would evenutally replace the Handachi as the main long sword.

as for Aoshi he uses a Kodachi which is different from a Wakizashi. typically longer than the standered Wakizashi they're light and fast while still long enough to have decent range. The "Standard" Wakizashi is about oh, say about 15-18 inches long *when measuring a japanese sword its measured from the Tip to the handgaurd in a straight line. Thus not including the handle* now usually the Kodachi is closer to 22-24 inches long thus providing a light weight, lightning fast sword with a decent range. Also the handle was often times long usually about 2 hand lengths long instead of the Wakizashi length of 1 1/2 hand lengths. the name "Ko-dachi" means short or small Tachi so...technically the Kodachi sould be carried edge down on hangers depending on the Era.

The Wakizashi is mainly for close combat situations and indoor fighting although Musashi Miyamoto used it extremly effectively outside.

now as for the Ninja sword...well it doesnt exist as Toei animation and Hollywood might lead you to believe. Neither the ninja or the "Onimitsu Doshin", the under cover agents of the Edo Police carried a "standard" short sword with a straight blade and a square tsuba. while a shorter sword slung over the back would have proven successful in penetrating casltes and in confined spaces but the "Ninjato" has yet to be discovered as a real sword.

the Earlier samurai were vicious often times killing without a purpose or reason. as for the Ninja...while they probably didnt run around in all black and throw stars and poison darts they were assassins and probably did sneak around peoples houses to attack them. they very well may have had poison used by dripping it down strings into the victims mouth during the night as it would have proven very succesful.

the word Rurouni is a made up word. it doesnt mean anything. now Ronin means "wave men"

 

I like them both but since I had to chose one I choose Samurai.
I just like Samurai's more.
And beside I like the more non-real type Ninja's(Naruto)...lol.

 

alright guys I wud lean towards the ninja bacuz it looks like I know more then you guys about this stuff as since,I was a former ninjutsu learner we learned that it is u have 2 treat everyone with respect. okay i will tell u all now,u all think right oh ninja them bad guys well the turth is that ninja's were good but the only reason that people treat them as bad guys is cause when they were back in the fedrual japan times it was originated from the yambushi monks of china and when they came to china they taught it to the pesents and farmers. and,of course .they were poor so what happen they wanted money and then they would do any thing so they became assains and would do all the dirty work for people and get money.

And about the sammurai they are just slaves who can't think for themselves the ninja always help them and the samurai were what u call glory takers.

the ninja motto strike hard and fade into the shadow

 

Sounds like someone is just as susceptible to propaganda as we supposedly are. While they did originate from China, to honestly believe that all ninja were good and all samurai were mindless drones is simply ignorant. But then, you're a high school student, and based on your writing skills, a new one at that, so I can't expect much from you anyway. Yes, some samurai were not honourable men, but to claim all ninjas were morally superior is stupid, and depending on your definition of honour, their morality is contradicted by their very work.

The ninja were special ops warriors. You're supposed to bloody well keep quiet. They pulled off assassinations, espionage and sabotage. It's rather smart to, y'kow... NOT let people know you're doing it.

As far as peasants go... some were trained to be samurai too, y'know.


http://www.warriorquest.com/historicalties.html <-- provides a pretty unbaised history.

 

the ninja as well as the metsuke were considered, "lapdogs" of the Tokugawa. not to say that they didnt have honor at all, but they took orders from the supreme government, and to any rebel of the government, it looked as if they had no incentive other than to be lead around. but thats not to say that the samurai were any different. one group simply live two lives while the samurai didnt. Yes, carrying out espionage would be considered maybe dishonorable, but like the samurai, they were only carrying out orders.

a merchant or a famer could train to weild a sword as well as other weapons normally carried by the samurai, but they could never become a samurai. Only through noble birth could they attain that level. for most of the Tokugawa reign there was a ban that stated that a commoner could only carry the wakizashi, or short sword. That being a sword with a *BLADE* of under two shaku or just under 2 feet in length. now, most wakizashi are somewhere between 20 and 22 inches long, however most of the swords carried by commoners of the period were probably 24 inches. therefore giving them the advantage of as long range as possible as well as keeping under the regulartion length and making it lighter than the katana. now it can be argued, why didnt the samurai just carry such swords, well there is a range problem...a katana is usually between 27-30 inches long. which give a massive range improvment, but it also adds weight. its more of a personal preference as well as a right to carry both the long and short swords. personally in my experience i use a katana in my right hand with the aforementioned "O-wakizashi or kodachi" in my left hand. giving both range and lightness...its ends up being a deadly sword combination.

 

so u guys think I'm dumb a well i got something to tell ya.alright i might be only in yr7 so what i know know heaps about ninja's and sammurai bacuz 1.I used to do ninjutsu. 2 I used to like the sammurai but when i read and stuidied about them I relized that the Ninja were better then the sammurai.

anyway I tell u anyway shaolin kills them all in 54 pieces and if you think not we'll your dumb.cuz I'll prove it to ya but i guess i wouldn't waste my tmie on it. :shy:

 

Watch out guys! The McDojo Class Valedictorian thinks we're stupid!

I say, back yourself up. Go on. Prove it. We've provided honest rebuttals about your wrong facts and outright wrong assumptions, and you have responded by using appeals to authority and ad hominem attacks.

Oh, and if you think we're dumb...

"Hello, Kettle? This is The Pot. You're black!"

 

:anger2:

okay here is what I have to say.

shaolin kicks your little samurai bacuz as you see the samurai learn the art of jujutsu which their "well lets put this into text u can understand"the samurai learn three dimensions of fighting 1.grappling 2.striking 3.weapons,and the shaolin fighters learn more dimensions of hand to hand combat here is a few.
striking,grappling,chi,flexiblity,energybands,and more amd they also learn how to use weapons though very rarely.Becuz it shows that the need for weaponary for the shaolin fighters is unesscecary becuz they are stronger then a human made weapon like swords,staffs,hojo's,hanbo,throwing knife,bokken,bamboo sticks,and more.which means that the samurai who reley on the need for weaponary would lose.and besides that weapons aren't as flexible as the human body is the power the shalin get thier power from is the"interistic energy" called chi it is dovelpoed through breathing execrises.

and now lets look the difference's between weapons and empty hand.

peripheral qualities of empty hand

fitness-aerobic-anaerobic
timing-rhythm of fighting-traning-experience
distance-of individual/approriate techinique
strength-physical and mental
speed-fast or slow
reflex-natural or trained
accuracy-knowledge of targets & appropriate attack
selection-of appropriate technique
balance-physical,mental and technical
flexiblity-physically,mentall and techincally
fients-defensive and offensive
kiai-shout

peripherral qualities of weapons

knowledge-of weapons
awareness-before,during after the attack
improvise-tentpole/bo/keys in socks/nanchauku
environment-water rain bush jungle

so u see their are more complicated situations with empty hand.which makeit better to use.and the weapons u need to have a different enviorment for different weapons.

so u see shaolin is better and any way i didn't think all u guys were dumb I only thought u were dumb nephilim_x

SO GO TO HELL

 

Wow, this seems to be a fun conversation to get involved in. :anime:

Ad hominem argument. Poor rhetoric form in any debate (which this has officially turned into). And "well lets put this into text u can understand" ad hominem means that you're attacking the one making the argument rather than the argument itself. Just a heads up, though I'm sure there will be a whole lot more, so I'm not sure why I bother.

You've succeeded in showing me that a Samurai is capable of being incredibly versatile.

Now, this is from my "limited" knowledge, so I won't claim at all that I'm correct, but I was under the assumption that shaolin also used weaponry as a sort of "just in case" dealy. And, well, there were probably plenty of samurai who also were "stronger than a human made weapon," hence their becoming a samurai in the first place.

How would they lose again? What if the samurai, with his versatility that you pointed out earlier, were better with a weapon than a shaolin was with his empty hands?

Many different groups use similar tactics to these. To assume the samurai never once did seems a bit farfetched.

Now, I know for a fact that timing, distance, strength, and speed are all required knowledge and thus qualities of weapons users as well. And, depending on the weapon, balance, accuracy, flexibility, and feints would also be included. What I'm saying is, you're leaving out a few qualities for the weapons users as well.

I suppose if you were talking about modern weaponry, then yes, different envioronments would be important, but for the time period we're dealing with here, most weapons were developed because they had to be used in all environments. Close, hand-to-hand combat would be exceptionally difficult otherwise in any situation.

And now I suppose I'm also on this list, since I contradict everything you say?

I'm probably already going anyway, so I don't really need an invitation.

 

the enviorment would mean a difference in the way u would use a weapon like example a sword u couldn't use that in a confined space area.

and a shaolin monk would know at the rank of a master would know how to use a energy band and if u don't know what I am talking about then u shouldn't be talking.when u know come back argue wit me :bleed:

 

What are they doing? Fighting in the guys closet?

That isn't how you debate effectively. You posted misinformation, and I countered it. You got angry and told me how stupid I was, and then Baph countered it. You got angry and told off Baph, and now here I am again picking you apart.

In other words, you never actually countered any of our arguments!

THE ONUS IS ON YOU TO PROVE THINGS. We are NOT responsible for doing YOUR research.

For all your supposed training, you are extremely childish and stupid.

 

he right you know...if you have info you must always be prepared to back it up. and just because you studied ninjutsu means very little. ninjutsu is really mostly an open handed martial art similar to Kempo. although i know very little of the actually weapons used in modern ninjutsu i do know through a friend that its most an open handed martial art. ive spent the last 8 yars of my life studying Japan. with an emphsis on the Samurai culture. so, i have to say that most of the information youve provided is very biased and somewhat wrong.


also, after reading other things youve posted. let me say this, a sword in a confined may be a useless weapon. but in almost all cases a samurai or even a ninja for that matter would have carried a smaller side weapon known as a tanto thus eliminating such a comprimising position.

it seems to me that if one so chldish were to take a martial arts class of any type you would have been asked to leave. when using any type of martial art whether it be a sword art or an open handed art, you must have self control, restraint, and most of all respect. and it seems to me that you lack all of these. i had a sensei that made me repeat this line over and over in my head until it became totally natural in the midst of a fight "anger is the enemy, self control is power" this is simple stating that in the midst of a fight you cant lose your cool no matter how they're winning or taunting you. you lose all focus when anger takes over you mind. everything you do become much more apparent when your angered. the same is applied to debating...you have to have self control and control of your anger.

 

if you think that these arent things that the samurai practiced as well than your quite mistaken. the samurai training regime was intense. not only did they practice Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, but they practiced Aikido, Kempo, Karate. the need to fight unarmed was a very important thing. many times in recorded history, there are records of unarmed fights between the samurai and commoners.

to say that is wrong as well. the whole point of the samurai's training, was that they didnt have to always rely on weapons. not only were they strong in weapons but they always practiced open handed martial arts. as a way to keep they're strength up in times of peace and as a defense when not wearing their sword.

 

Okay then... then can you tell me why Ninjas never wore black?

Did you KNOW that they never wore black?

Why do they use ninja-to, and not katanas?

Did you know that ninjas rarely even WORE their gis? Only when they were to engage in head-on-head combat.

Do you know WHY Ninjas were believed to be immortal or indestructable?

~~~~~

Answers:

Black stands out in darkness/night, unlike dark blues, greys, and browns (which is what they wore)

No, you probably didn't know that.

Ninja-tos were less expensive as well as much more light-weight and easier to handle

Their gis gave away obvious signs that they were ninja, and there for something bad. They would, instead, dress as a commoner, or when assassinating someone important, like their guards or servants.

Because the ninja would dye their clothing in dark red dye and left them ripped and torn so that if they were to get cut, the rip in the clothing would look like it belongs and the blood would soak into the red-dyed gi, so it would look like he was incapable of bleeding.


Bu-u-u-u-u-u-ut, being the ninja master you are, I'm SURE you knew all of that.

 

hate to tell you this but the ninja-to isnt a real sword...there is nothing in recorded japanese history that has a short, straight bladed, single edged sword. more than likely the ninja just used a katana or a kodachi. technically, a "ninjato" is simply any sword that a ninja uses. more than likely the "kodachi or chisagatana" is the famous "ninjato". the kodachi is a short sword of extended length. generally a short sword is somewhere between 20-22 inches in length. the Kodachi is about 24-26 inches in length and has about a 10 inche tsuka making it possible to weild in two hands while having the maximum length while keeping the weight down.

Chances are as well even though Dark Blue and brown does blend better...more than likely the ninja just wore everyday clothes...in espianoge, like spies today, would wear clothing that wouldnt stand out in everyday life. a ninja, even though, a ninja, would live like a farmer. teh famous Iga and Koga ninjia who were rumored to be used by the Tokugawa, wer often disguised as mere homeless wanderers. to be honest, other than living two lives one gathering intelligence the so called "ninja" lived very similar lives as the farmers and merchants.

 

To settle this I will come and tell u what and energy band is okay,it is not my fault if u don't believe me.


well if u tape into ur energy band u can be able to see the moving object slower. Then other people like eg if I chuck a knife at u u would be able to see the knife moving really slow which would give you time to see it and move which way to dodge it.thats how bruce lee used to catch bullets if u remember his old exibtions he use 2 catch bullets.

so that is how the old shaolin monks used to fight :sweat2: :blush: :blush2: :sad: :anger2: :bleed: :anime:

 

[


it seems to me that if one so chldish were to take a martial arts class of any type you would have been asked to leave. when using any type of martial art whether it be a sword art or an open handed art, you must have self control, restraint, and most of all respect. and it seems to me that you lack all of these. i had a sensei that made me repeat this line over and over in my head until it became totally natural in the midst of a fight "anger is the enemy, self control is power" this is simple stating that in the midst of a fight you cant lose your cool no matter how they're winning or taunting you. you lose all focus when anger takes over you mind. everything you do become much more apparent when your angered. the same is applied to debating...you have to have self control and control of your anger.[/QUOTE]

what is this supposed to maen do u know what or how I train in shaolin we learn that their is no enemy only hate is the enemy in a fight and cause in white crane we learn to focus in the fight and stay cool.And what are you saying I have no disipline in shaolin if we talk we have to do 100push ups that is why nobody talks.what they try to do is make us find our inner self.