Debate Samurai or Ninja

Did i say any facts? Nah, just that theres no way you can correlate them to form any kind of probability.

Didnt say id win either; just that in terms of solving the debate my post is just as relevant as the others- useful input or not.

And Neph - they d stand up to a video game; they just dont go any further than it in terms of answering the question properly.

 

Does this mean we can't come to at least some probable conclusions? We don't have complete specifics regarding cavemen either; does this mean that they could beat a werewolf because of the various video games with cavemen superheroes?

...Of course you didn't, you said the ninja would win... RIGHT?

Real life people don't level up.

Except that real world proof actual, y'know PROVES SOMETHING and can be used to make logical extrapolations.

 

Those 2 senetences dont really have any sort of link in them... so to answer them seperately

(a) You can muse at these situations, but a definite outcome *is* impossible to justify. Which is my whole point.
(b) Why would it? I was pointing out the equal irrelevance of videogaming and it equal standing with the irrelevant points of far fecthed historical attributes.

Oh I suppose. not that it really makes any difference.

No, they train. In a way its a very similar thing.

There is no proof of the better class head-to-head in this thread.

 

Watch the implied ad-hom's

- Ark

 

Of course ultimately real world studies are more important than a video game, which is going to be tweaked for balance sake ultimately.

Uhhhh, yeah, recovered artifacts and documents are on par with numbers pulled out of a programmers ***. Sure there.

No it isn't. You don't just carry on at one level of skill for a while and then BAM improve; and skills do not decrease in a video game. Nor will all my skills increase at the same time. And my writing skills are definitely not going to be increased if I fight enough Blue Hobos in the Slums.

Except that we're debating real world samurai and ninja, not made up stuff. We can make educated guesses based on our perceptions of their skills and equipment, and while obviously we can't outright say, using logical real world evidence to lend strength to our chosen side is a lot better than giggling about what your favorite games say.

 

I cant see why your relating everything i say to imply that i believe video games make accurate generalisations. Quite obviously ive said they are completely unrealistic; just as unrealistic as basing fanciful historical situations on strewn facts and data.

Now please get past that, and we can continue if you want.

 

well if you know so much and your so good you should go ahead and prove it...ive studied kenjutsu and iaijutsu for 8 years and i would never dream of going up against any known martial artist, cause i have nothing to prove. i know im still learning. all your really doing is saying. "im uber |_337 but im not gonna prove it cause well....just cause" and thats a load of bullcrap...if you can do it...prove it...

 

There seems to be many misconceptions of samurai and ninja on this topic (though I certainly didn't read every post), so I'll post this: http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm, it's the top ten misconceptions of the samurai.
Myself, I'd go with the samurai, ninja were basically just samurai who were either more elite or just more willing to do really dirty work.

 

the page on the katana is accurate to a degree.
there are a few wrong pieces of information there.

"The Katana has become the famous "sword of the samurai". Our images of any samurai, at any period, is of a man with at least one sword.

While this is by far from completely inaccurate, it is simply not complete. Samurai preferred different weapons during different times, as well as different types of swords. The samurai were first mounted archers, using bows and arrows as their primary weapons. During this time, lower class warriors carried straight, crude swords called chokuto. These were far from the legendary swords the samurai would later carry; they were mostly thrusting weapons used in close combat with other foot soldiers, never by the noble warriors, covered in their boxy armor on top of their horses. Not soon afterwards the spear came into play, and began to gain popularity with both warriors. At this point, even shields were occasionally used (something that would later be unheard of)."

first off, in this paragraph it states that the "chokuto" was the weapon for foot soldiers. which is correct but innaccruate at the same time. the "Chokuto" was a chinese sword. staright in proportions and double edged it came from the mainland and Korea. however, at this period (694 A.D.) there were no other swords being made, only those imported from the mainland. they "high class" warriors of the period would have used perhaps a better made blade but still would be using this style.

"It was the Mongolian invasion, however, that truly revolutionized the weapons the samurai would use. Not until the introduction of guns would such a major change appear. Bows became stronger and more accurate; spears grew stronger and longer; and the swords became longer, stronger, and, for the first time, curved. The swords, called tachi, were now being carried by the mounted samurai, and sword fighting changed from thrusting and stabbing to slashing and cutting. (Thrusting, however, still remained in several styles). These swords still were not the katana, however. They were longer and more curved (the curve also starts in the middle, as opposed to the katana, who's curve starts more towards the point). They were also worn with cords slung from the obi (belt), parallel to the ground. A companion sword, however, was also worn. This sword, smaller in all dimensions, was called a gatana. It was worn stuck through the obi across the front, slightly to the left, edge facing up."

this paragraph states that the sword during this period was starting to change. while true, for the most part many "tachi" of this period were straight with single edges. the were put on hangers the suspended the blade edge down. these blade were known as "Kazari Tachi" and are the earliest known swords of purely japanese design.

its also states that the Tachi were more curved and and longer. while true, it also says that the curve was more toward the middle. this is highly debateable because of the fact that the curve can come at any point along the blade.

another state ment is that there was a companion blade. while this may have been true it and probably was a tanto blade. it was most certainly not called the "gatana" in the word "katana" "ka"is a single letter of hiragana. in the phonetical japanese alphabet of hiragana, adding two marks (similar to ") above each letter it changes the pronunciation of the word. so "ka" becomes "ga" so...gatana is simply a sound change of katana.


"Several other types of swords existed. The largest of all swords was the odachi, or field sword. The largest of these is 12 feet 4 inches in length (this one was never used in combat but as an offering to a shrine). These mighty swords caused fear in combat, and were so large they either had to be strapped on the back, or, as was more commonly done, simply carried in hand. Several types of short swords (shoto, long swords known as daito) existed: the kodachi (small tachi), wakizashi (small katana), chisa-gatana (a medium sized sword, between a wakizashi and a katana in length), and tanto and aikuchi (daggers, the difference between the two were in the mounting, the tanto having a guard and the aikuchi not). A samurai always carried a short sword and a long sword, known together as a dai-sho."

true, the largest of blade created was the "O-dachi" sometimes called the"No-dachi". these swords were merely tachi of extended length and were usually between 4-8 feet in length. (side note. when measuring a japanese sword, only the blade is measured.) although its use in battle is highly unlikely it was a great scare tactic. now there are some examples of no-dachi with battle marks but they were usually very poorly made and not very useful in battle. these swords are usually considered to be closer the polearm "naginata" then a sword.

the short sword did exist for many years for two basic purposes. the first being for close combat such as indoor fighting or in an alleyway. and second as a backup weapon. while some may argue that they were used for seppuku. its more likely that a tanto would be used. the tanto is a knife and for the purpose of seppuku veru useful. while a samurai would use whatever blade he had on him at the time of being condemned to seppuku, if it was by the order of someone then they would be given a tanto.

as for the types. each on is generally the same. the "kodachi" is as it states a small tachi. for most speciemens found they are usually longer then the standard "wakizashi" and much older. the "wakizashi" is the most well known of the "shoto". a wakizashi is defined by ay blade that is under two shaku (about 2 feet. a shaku was 11.93 inches) the chisa-gatana is means "short katana" and are shoto mounted as katana. this is the predeccesor to the "daisho" and shouldnt be confused for any reason for its later incarnation the "wakizashi"

an aikuchi tanto is simply a tanto without a tsuba. they are not regarded as tw seperate types of knives.

" It was during the later Sengoku Jidai that the famous katana came into being; after that, it became the most popular samurai weapon (aside from the previously mentioned gun, which should probably take the credit, though the roles may have reversed during the Edo Jidai). It was used in combination with the spear (which at this point had reached its peak length), guns, and bow (which was living out its final days). Tachi (and sometimes katana in tachi mounting) were used on horseback still, however."

actually, during the Sengoku Jidai, most samurai were still using tachi. it wouldnt be until the early 1700's that the katana became standard as the long sword.

many people, when they think of "spears" think of throwing weapons. this wasnt true. the "yari" of the japanese pole arm similar to a spear was used as a thrusting weapon and had a triangular shaped blade.

"During the Edo Jidai the katana and its cousin the wakizashi became the official swords, their size even regulated by the shogunate."

the size of a sword is not controlled because the katana is measured to match its user. holding the katana point down its supposed to just brush the floor.

what they did regulate was who could carry swords. on July 18, Shoho 2 (1645 A.D) a ban on wearing swords was put up. it stated that one could wear a sword of 1.8 shaku if one obtained a permit. this allowed travellers to arm themselves along the Tokaido road from robbers and bandits which was fairly common. it also allowed the chief od Edo police to arm the "Okappiki" ir the non samurai police. The ban was lifted entirely in 1871. anyone was allowed to wear blade of any length and wear their hair Chonmage or samurai topknot. then on January 1, 1877 the Haitorei edict took effect which limited the right to carry swords to the military and the Kenkakukeikantai.

 

Hitoriki, you seem to be fairly well versed in Japanese swordplay, I was just wondering who you study under, and any tips for finding out a kendo and iaido McDojo. I've limited myself to training in hand to hand and CQC forms of martial arts, but I've been pondering branching out and taking a weapon form for some time now.

 

it all really begins with what sword forms you want to take. i practice two Kenjutsu forms myself, Niten Ichi Ryuu and a form of Ittou Ryuu. i also practice a form of iaijutsu, its a style that i created myself after studying several iaijutsu forms. unfortunetly, in america, it is very hard to find a dojo dedicate to the study of kenjutsu or iaijutsu, both of which still retain the more serious side of the art.

for the most part, people usually find use of the japanese sword in karate classes. unfortunetly, i have seen quite an accomplished karate artist show me what hed learned with the japanese sword, and although hes an incredible martial artist, the sword teaching was very sparse and in many cases, very untraditional.

i prefer the studying the japanese sword as its own class. whereas karate teaches a wide variety of techniques and weapons, i prefer a class which is soley for the study of the japaneses sword. i suggest, depending on where you live you seek the same. as i stated before, it is very hard to find a dojo that studies the Nihontou exclusivly. there are two that i know of that retain much of the traditional kenjutsu style. the first has a dojo located in New York City. called the Shinkendo federation. its a very serious study of the japanese sword and i find it to be quite a traditional way of learning. the second is in Los Angeles, called the Dojo of the Four Winds and is headed by James Williams. this dojo is kept very very traditional in its teaching. they cover all the traditional samurai arts. they teach a curriculum that is known as bugei or bugi which is the militaristic samurai arts. they teach both Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu as well as Tantojutsu and many forms of open handed martial arts. once a student is fully accepted into the dojo they begin first learning proper movements and stances and then begin learning kenjutsu and iaijutsu with live swords. which perhaps is dangerous, but at the same time, very very in depth. because your using a live sword, the depth of learning has to be increased tenfold. ive found that in some dojos that use bokken and shinai for sparring, although serious, sometimes the students lack because of the knowledge that the swords arent real and cannot kill unless used for that purpose, i.e. combative intent, such as using the bokken and *trying* to kill your opponent. so, in this dojo the use of live swords forces the student to realize that, unless they learn everything perfectly, they could be very seriously hurt.

as for other dojos, before joining one, visit the US Kendo federations webpage and find out if they're licenced with them. and if not, ask then USKF, whether or not its worth joining.

 

I prefer samurai, that's all I have to say. Though, there is some uber coolness to ninja. :catgirl:

 

How ironic, my bro just got the movie, "The Last Samurai", with Tom Cruise and I come across this thread . . . after watching that movie, which also had ninja's in it, (possiably my fav sceen), I would have to say a samurai . . . I guess it's because of that samurai code they live by that makes a samurai so intresting to me.

 

Being that I Live by honor and would die by honor I have choosen the samurai. It is also a better life to know what you are doing then to hide it from others, which many shinobis did in the past b/c of the shame of what they did had done to their hearts....

 

well, define honor. honor is a word, what you define that word as is up to you. you may define honor as not killing unneccesarily or not defiling yourself with wealth and power. but another may define honor as killing to serve your master or stealing because it means your family will get by another day. either way you cannot define honor in a general term that will fit everyone. so, perhaps, those who hide their deeds may not have been shamed by them, but protecting them from those who wouldnt understand.

 

samuri

whoever said samuri i agrie becuase thy are more skilled than ninjas!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I agrie with u!!!!!!!!!

 

Ehh..

It might just be me, I'm not entirely well-versed on the subject, but I would assume those that were ninjas didn't really have much of a problem with it considering, y'know, it was their choice to do such tasks.

Not to mention I think the ninja would be more interesting in hiding themselves because.. gee, oh, I dunno.. it just might be bad for business if they were to waltz around proclaiming to everyone on the street that they were a ninja.

Anyways, I still go with ninja.

So says the all-knowing GenericHero. ;P

 

I'm an incurable romantic. I'd always be a samurai, who fights with honor. Because it's the right thing to do. :sweat2:

On the other hand, the Yakuza, the most feared criminal organization in Japan, was founded by unemployed Samurais.

Those guys do scare me. So well I'd like to be a Samurai. But of the good ones :sweat2: